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ariess
ariess like.author.displayName 1 Like

Interesting KC. I wonder how much Wilson does make for those TV ads he does? I know he has given a lot to charity. Its tough taking a cut.

ogc
ogc like.author.displayName 1 Like

Great post and research. The list of two plus is not encouraging, though if my memory is right, Capuano, Wolf, Frasor, and Soria returned to eventually do OK.

Yeah, totally agree that passing on Wilson is the right thing to do.

Unfortunately, Schulman has been reporting that Wilson is pissed off by the Giants stance and is looking to move on to another team, leaving in a huff, if not a minute and a huff. He could possibly be gone even if the Giants match whatever he is offered by another team, as he apparently feels entitled to get that $7M arb minimum and is off put that the Giants instead is releasing him as he feels that he sacrificed to help the Giants win the 2010 Chanpionship.

But when is the bill paid up? He already got $6.5M in 2011 and $8.5M in 2012, and he barely threw anything in 2012. True that he did stay and help support the team and relievers, but few coaches get $7M to do that.

And he is lucky that he won like that. We had a good bullpen that season, what if his sacrificed caused him to pitch poorly and we lost instead? He could not know beforehand at which point his arm goes out. Maybe if he spoke out earlier, Sabean could have gotten another closer in trade too.

I give thanks that he did deliver to us and appreciate what he has done for us, but this was the right move for the Giants and hopefully he understands. If he does sign with the Dodgers as rumored, I hope he gets a big contact as he probably will not be ready to pitch in the majors until mid season, and by then, the Giants might have a big enough lead that he will not matter.

ariess
ariess like.author.displayName 1 Like

Agree with CQ's analysis of the value of Wilson.

ariess
ariess like.author.displayName 1 Like

Definitely had advertisement value.  Perhaps an Adman could show in real dollars how much this means.  But it should also mean some extra bucks for Wilson too. I assume he gets some value back for the commercials he does.   I guess baseball contracts are primarily based on baseball value on the field.  We all know that he brings folks into the seats, but the giants are betting that they will sellout with or without him.

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KennyCupp
KennyCupp like.author.displayName 1 Like

I don't disagree with any single point you've made. HOWEVER, with that said, isn't there something to be said for the financial benefits that Wilson brings to the Giants in the way of merchandise and additional media coverage? If the option is to give him Affeldt money plus performance bonuses, thats basically putting $2m/year between Wilson and the team. During the discussion regarding Jeremy Lin staying with the Knicks, estimates were that Jeremy Lin's mere presence increased the value of the team by approximately $50m. Using my prior example - or even make it $5m/year for grins....with all the times that Wilson ends up on the Tonight Show, or random Fox show w/ Chris Rose, or a placard behind the guys on PTI, or simply being referenced as "The Beard" on Sportscenter - doesn't that at least bear some investigation into its worth as opposed to just looking at sheer contract numbers?

Chris Quick
Chris Quick like.author.displayName 1 Like

@KennyCupp I think once you start making baseball decisions based on advertising issues, well, you're going down a dark hole. Just ask the Diamondbacks about their decisions to keep "Fan Favorites" Eric Byrnes and Luis Gonzalez longer than they should have. Wilson certainly adds *something* in the form of advertising bucks, but I can't imagine it's even close to enough to offset his salary if he's injured.

KennyCupp
KennyCupp

@Chris Quick Comparing this situation to the Diamondbacks is lazy.  Setting aside the fact that the Diamondbacks have drawn more than 3m fans ONCE since 2001 and the Giants have done it, well, EVERY YEAR - you use Byrnes and Gonzo as a basis for the argument?  This isn't a "fan favorite" issue.  This is a "does this player bring me more value and revenue" issue.  Secondly, you make a reference to the additional revenue not offsetting his salary if he's injured - we're not talking about paying him zero or $8m.  The Giants have already said they'd like to sign him to a lower value contract, so there's obviously something on the table here - its not a zero sum equation.  I'd much rather take the route of cutting him loose entirely and using that 8m towards upgrading from Pagan to Josh Hamilton.  But if the Giants are committed to at least throwing him a bone and making an Affeldt-ish salary offer, then I can't see how the Giants aren't at least gaining as much or more in exposure/ad revenue in the difference between that and Wilson's actual salary demands.

Frozendarkness
Frozendarkness

@KennyCupp  @ogc 

you don't sign a player like bweezy and not use him to close. baseball loves consistency, whether i like it or not, bweezy as a relieiver just isn't big for team chemistry and also team consistency

 

jeremy lin's situation is different in that he actually came off a GOOD season and he would continue his GOOD season. this is more akin to saying let's sign yao, oh let's take a risk on his foot, he brings so much money.

KennyCupp
KennyCupp

@ogc  @KennyCupp  If you think that the a reasonable starting point of negotiation for a player like Brian Wilson is $3m/year of base salary, then there's no amount of logic thats going to help you.  Keep staring at rainbows and unicorns, we'll get through this together.  The Giants decided they didn't think he was worth $6.8m for a year of salary and thus, non-tendered him.  Performance-wise, I'm inclined to agree, especially with Romo and Hembree hanging around.  My only point - and the point getting lost in all of the other mumbo jumbo - is that whether you want to admit it or not, there is a reasonable tangible benefit outside the lines to having Wilson on the team.  With the exorbitant purchase price of the Dodgers and the example of MSG stock prices with the Jeremy Lin situation, that point can't be magnified enough.  I also get Chris' point about roster spots....but please - considering we had the empty corpses of Aubrey Huff and Guillermo Mota on our playoff rosters last year, I don't really think thats as big of an issue as some make it seem.

ogc
ogc

@KennyCupp @Chris Quick You are the one being lazy. Chris got it right, the offer is a small base and incentives. Schulman has been reporting that he is insulted by that because he sacrificed his arm to win in 2010. And there thus there is no $8M to upgrade anyone, maybe $3M. If they had just offered him the arb minimum, THAT would have been an Affeldt salary level offer, but they clearly did not think he was worth that. And I do not see Wilson making up the $4M difference between that arb and the small bars rumor in ad revenue, he does not have that much ad mojo going for him.

Chris Quick
Chris Quick

@KennyCupp The Giants want to sign him to a lower base salaried contract. Wilson apparently wants no part in that. The idea of keeping Wilson around for additional revenue would make sense if there weren't a finite amount of roster spots available. The team can only have so many players. Those players need to be the best available players. Utilizing a roster spot on a player that might not help the team -- and at a high price -- just doesn't make any sort of baseball sense to me.

 

And this is partially a fan favorite issue, I think. Wilson's appeal as a revenue generator -- in non-playing aspects -- is clearly linked to the fans. I'm not sure how you can say otherwise.

 

I don't know at what number Brian Wilson makes sense, but it's clearly a lower base salary with incentives.

KennyCupp
KennyCupp like.author.displayName 1 Like

@Chris Quick  @KennyCupp

ariess
ariess

As far as setting the market for number of years, Upton is several years younger than Pagan, and at Pagan's age, being that speed is an asset, he should not expect more than 3 years.  Some guys are still good in their late 30's, but he will have to prove no let down over 3 years and move on to his next contract.  Of course some rich team could go Aaron Rowand on him.

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TSF
TSF

From a baseball perspective, this isn't even controversial. Wilson will get paid somewhere and the Giants won't have to deal with his risk. From a marketing perspective, it's the first time since Barry Bonds wasn't resigned that the Giants are faced with losing one of their memorable stars. It's a road we may have to cross with Sandoval, and probably will with Lincecum. If the team is to remain competitive, it has to be willing to refresh itself. We can't cling to past glory and expect to win tomorrow.

 

On that note, Chris, what do you think of resigning Angel Pagan, given the contracts to Hunter and Upton? Do we resign Pagan, or sign a corner OF like Nick Swisher and try to trade for a CF like Jacoby Ellsbury, with Blanco as the Plan B?

Chris Quick
Chris Quick

@TSF Upton's deal certainly sets the CF market. I'm pretty leery of going past three years with Pagan, but teams might have to if they want to land him. I'd love to get Swisher and stick him in LF. For whatever reason -- and this could end up being totally wrong -- he seems kind of undervalued right now.

ogc
ogc

@Chris Quick @TSF I liked Swisher also but then looked at his defense numbers and he is really not all that good even in the corners. The only way he works is if he plays first and move Belt to LF. Or if he signs a really low contract, which is very unlikely, he going to get paid. Sound like Phillies are going hard on Pagan, might go four years too, while Giants are rightly holding to three.

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chelmrtz
chelmrtz

I never thought I'd see anyone ref either Tim Spooneybarger nor Erick Threets, and yet here we are.

 

Silliness aside, I had no idea the pool of pitchers with two or more TJ procedures was so small. Now that you break it out, it's quite the bleak picture.

ogc
ogc

@chelmrtz Wilson alluded to this right after he was DLed, he said to the press that he researched it and that he was going to beat the big odds against him. Then somehow he got positive by seasons end that he is coming back like normal on opening day, which is just delusional.

ariess
ariess

You think the giants learned anything after the DeRosa signing?  I would want 7 million or more too.  And, perhaps I would try to get it.  But reality setting in, if I want to stay a giant, I would be willing to take a tad less, with serious incentives.  Its not what I did in 2010, but what the team can expect from me now.   Wilson is a bit of a character and should have some value in his ability for the giants to make money on selling souvenirs of the bearded wonder.  Perhaps they can sell Wilson Gnomes in Amish Country.