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Electricbassguy
Electricbassguy

Conor's SLG is higher than posted on this article... he's at .300/.365/.480 now. Not a huge difference. I still think he deserves a starting role, but I don't expect the Giants to give it to him.

RogerM
RogerM

Whether they particularly liked him or not, nobody called the Brown pick an overdraft. He went right about where he was predicted, on top of which the 2010 draft was generally considered so weak that after the top 2-3 there wasn't any sort of consensus at all. Witness Browns college teammate, who many scouts thought a weaker prospect than Brown, going in the top 5 picks. Panik considered an overdraft by about 30 picks. Sickes like Panik, as does fr instance Ben Badler, but that's not the same thing as thinking he was a top 25 pick. And although there are ameliorating factors, a college player hiring below league average in the Cl league, especially when his hit tool is his only selling point, is certainly a big disappointment. Most of the scouting community has hung the utility label on him, and that certainly looks like a good call right now. Brown otoh is having a very solid year, and in my eyes is still easily or #1 prospect.

Chris Quick
Chris Quick

@hammystyle It kind of depends on what the Giants trade to get him. When the Rockies picked him up, they traded a C+ prospect for him and took on his salary. The Giants might pay more now than if they had moved on Scutaro earlier in the offseason. And, plus, it's not like the team didn't know that it had MI trouble: Scutaro has always made sense. I could be too negative on Panik right now, but he's looking like an overdraft. I've said it before, but if the scouting community calls you an overdraft, you really need to hit. Panik hasn't done that this year. 

hammystyle
hammystyle

This is a really good writeup, but a couple comments.

Why is trading for Marco Scutaro now when he is readily available that much worse than trading for him in March when he was readily available. At worst it seems like correcting a mistake.

Panik - I think it's worth noting that his chief tool by all accounts his makeup. We should expect that he can contine to improve. I actually think he projects a lot like a Gillaspie type hitter. Which is a pretty god guy in the middle of the infield.

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LeviDavis
LeviDavis

@Chris Quick Panik's second half slash line is up to .341/.411/.478. My point in all this being: We jump on and off prospect bandwagons WAY too fast. Panik was not the answer at the top of the Giants lineup the day he was drafted, or when he destroyed short season pitching. He was also not a bust the first time he had trouble making an adjustment.

LeviDavis
LeviDavis

@Chris Quick I think you are burying Panik too quickly. I also thought everyone was riding high on him and Brown way too fast (all that 'They'll be batting 1-2 in 2013' stuff was just silly). They both got off to rough starts and rebounded. Panik  is still his first full season of professional ball, he is still walking more than he is striking out, and he has hit much better in the second half, which could indicate adjustments or BABIP magic. Or both. Also, the whole scouting community wasn't calling him an overdraft. John Sickles, whom I trust more than most, liked the pick. He also liked the Gary Brown pick when the whole scouting community was calling it an overdraft.

LeviDavis
LeviDavis

Also, let's not forget that Brown is over two years older than Panik. If Panik repeats the level next year, then he will be playing it at the same age Brown did.

LeviDavis
LeviDavis

@RogerM I disagree about the scouting community and Brown. I wish I could remember names, but I was following the chat rooms for ESPN, Baseball Prospectus and Fangraphs during the 2010 draft, and every expert on them with the exception of John Sickles and Kevin Goldstein openly ridiculed the pick and the Giants for making it.

RogerM
RogerM

@Ram He was named best defensive catcher in the Cal league, but it should be noted that those Best Defensive teams in the Cal league are entirely voted on by the league's managers with no editorial input from BA, and they're every bit as subjective as Golden Gloves (does Tommy hitting 20 HRs get him some manager's Best Defense vote? Maybe).  Others view him differently.  Just yesterday in Keith Law's chat he referred to Joseph's d as "still pretty rough back there."  Personally I've seen him a few times and thought he looked pretty good, but then I'm not a scout or an evaluator.I'd say you could make a pretty good case for either Brown or Joseph as the better prospect, but certainly the return on Brown would be quicker, and teams would probably take that into account as well.  That said, with Pagan and Melky both FA and Nate, well, Nate, the Giants own need for Brown is obviously greater than their need for Joseph and that's a pretty important detail as well.

Phillyboijr
Phillyboijr

Is it out of the realm of possibility that Brown gets added to the expanded roster down the stretch? His speed is an asset just as it was with Darren Ford in 2010. Further, his bat couldn't possibly be as impotent as Manny Burris' is. Again, hate to pick on Burris but I fail to see his purpose/value on a major league roster.

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Phillyboijr
Phillyboijr

What about Brett Bochy?

RogerM
RogerM

Phillyboijr  Doesn't scout up very well.  Doubt other teams would value him that highly.

Phillyboijr
Phillyboijr

What do you mean by that (sincere question)? Where does Bochy sit with his fastball? Hembree was pretty awful this year; hopefully it was just due in part to his injury.

RogerM
RogerM

Bochys fastball has been 86-88 mph when I've seen him. And I've heard Richmond PxP guy say his teammates refer to it as the "invisiball" because opponents can't seem to pick it up. Best case he's throwing Chris Young's fastball, worst case major league hitters feast on him. Either way a deception delivery doesn't typically wow scouts. He's almost certain to be valued more by the Giants than any other org for a variety of obvious reasons.

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Phillyboijr
Phillyboijr

Great write-up and pretty spot on. It's always surprised me that the Giants done give Gillapsie a shot to at least be a bench player at 2B/3B. The guy may not be David Wright, but he's infinitely more useful than Manny Burris...who I might add has no business being on a major league roster.

TSF
TSF

Phillyboijr The game in Los Angeles where Conor's weak arm was exposed shamed the Giants enough to avoid him for a while. It was as explosively embarrassing a scene as Pill's misplay in LF and Huff's stint at 2B. The team was willing to sacrifice defense earlier in the year for a marginal upgrade in offense, but the poor results showed that the team is better off with average or plus defense with weak bats, rather than below average defense for average bats. Gillaspie is also a left-handed batter, so even if he has the batting average the Giants so desperately love, that is another negative.I'm a Gillaspie fan but it's been clear for a while he won't have much future on this team. He could be very effective role player elsewhere, although where I have no idea.

RogerM
RogerM

TSF Hard to figure out where exactly.  Most teams want IF utility players who can play multiple positions credibly; Conor can't even fake 1.  If you're going to be as bad defensively as Gillaspie, then you need Allen Craig like power. Gillaspie doesn't provide that either.  As I've said for awhile, now, the position that is perfect for Gillaspie doesn't exist anymore: he's made for PH duties, but the incredible mushrooming pitching staffs have essentially eliminated that position from rosters.

Chris Quick
Chris Quick

@Ram I think he's improved but some scouts are still skeptical. Still, I think he's made some big strides this year on defense.

Chris Quick
Chris Quick

@Ram Frankie Pegs' year is maybe the one of the most disappointing aspects of this year's farm. It's kind of hard to believe that he's already 24. Rosin and Heston seem like they're about on equal footing as far as trade value goes.

Chris Quick
Chris Quick

@Ram Yup. Hembree's year is looking pretty bad. He was struggling in Fresno and now he's hurt. Not good.

RogerM
RogerM

Chris Quick He was nursing a sore arm for most of the summer it sounds like.  Guess that's why you move guys who throw 100 fast -- they usually don't do it for very long.

Ram
Ram

Looks like Joseph is coming on strong in the second half like last year. I would rank him above Gary Brown. Rosin seems like a oft-discussed trade piece. Gillespie seems the most likely in hitters. Will someone take a flier on Brock Bond? Pegs would have been a nice chip, but his season and injury history erases that avenue.

Giant_guest
Giant_guest

What happened to Hembree?  Did he fall out of favor?  

Ram
Ram

Hembree is injured. TJ is a possibility.

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Ram
Ram

There are questions about Joseph's D? I haven't read something like that. Wasn't he voted the best defensive catcher in the Cal League by Baseball America? Of course, I could be completely wrong.

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RogerM
RogerM

This all seems about right to me.  I think I'd add Culberson and Noonan to the minor chips list.  I'd also say that Panik probably shouldn't be a trade chip right now because you'd be selling so low on the value of a first round draft choice.  Better to hold on to him and hope his value goes up next year.  Brown and Joseph are both really interesting as trade chips because they both tend to split scouting opinions.  Brown a little less so than Joseph, who still has very much split beliefs on whether he can stay at Catcher or not.  That's problematic for obvious reasons: what if the team you want to trade with has minor league scouts who are of the "con" position.  The Dodgers are going through this right now with the Cubs, who apparently just don't like Zach Lee that much.   That's an indictment of the overall depth of the Giants' system of course: even if they decide it's worth a chance to move their top top prospects, not every team values them that highly.

Chris Quick
Chris Quick

RogerM Noonan and Culberson would be good minor chips too add; though, I'm not a fan of either, but hence the "minor chips" designation.

RogerM
RogerM

Chris Quick Culberson's a perfect trade chip: I don't ever expect him to be anything but lousy and yet he's got a couple tools that interest scouts.  Turn him into a bullpen arm for a stretch run and I'd say we got great value for him.  Noonan I sort of still hold out hopes that there's something alive in there so I'd prefer to keep him around.

Chris Quick
Chris Quick

Oh, and re: Panik -- I'm just really down on him right now. Maybe a little too down.