Mays a Worthy Choice for an All-Time Team

Published by on April 15, 2012 | 15 Responses

Illustration by Sarah Wiener.

Today, on the all-important Jackie Robinson Day, Graham Womack of Baseball: Past and Present published his All-Time Dream Project, a project a couple of months in the making in which a group of over 600 baseball lovers came to their consensus on what a nine-player lineup of the greatest ballplayers of all time might look like, a team assembled if you just had to win a ballgame.

I am flattered to have been asked to be a part of the project, and I want to especially thank Graham for letting me write about my father’s hero: Willie Mays, the Say Hey Kid.

From the year of his first Most Valuable Player award in 1954 to ‘65 (when he won his second and last MVP), he accumulated between 113 and 119 WAR according to Baseball-Reference and Fangraphs, an average of  nearly 10 wins when eight is considered MVP quality. A typical season during that 12-year span for Mays included 40 home runs, 22 thefts, 118 runs, 109 runs batted in and a slash line of .318/.392/.605, all while he dazzled with some of the most brilliant outfield play the world has ever seen.

Read the rest of this Mays’ entry here, and of course make sure to read the write-ups on the other eight spectacular players — and one manager — by nine more spectacular writers (Dan Szymborski, Graham Womack, Diane Firstman, Craig Calcaterra, Frank Graham Jr., William Juliano, Stacey Gotsulias, Marty Appel and Josh Wilker).

My votes, in order of how I might hit ‘em:

1. Joe Morgan, 2B

2.  Barry Bonds, LF

3. Willie Mays, CF

4. Lou Gehrig, 1B

5. Mike Schmidt, 3B

6. Babe Ruth, RF

7. Honus Wagner, SS

8. Johnny Bench, C

9. Pedro Martinez, P

The fantastic illustrations were done by the talented Sarah Wiener, so follow her (@for_the_sarah). And make sure to make your donation here to 826 Valencia, a non-profit that teaches journalism to kids, which is also what this ambitious project was about: giving back, which makes it all the more fitting to hit the internet on “42 Day.”

Feel free to debate out my lineup, the consensus lineup, or any players you’d like to see on the list that are not.

Follow Rory Paap on Twitter.

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Replace Mike Schmidt with Brooks Robinson, and move Babe up to the 5th spot....So I guess that means that Mantle, Aaron, DiMaggio, Berra, Jackie Robinson and Ted Williams amount to chopped-liver?

RogerM
RogerM

Rory's list is my list, although I'll admit I really want Ted Williams on the team.  Maybe I can make him the DH.  I won't bump Bonds for several reasons, but the essence is Bond's greater overall game and athleticism (also Bonds played against better competition -- the AL during Williams years, especially when you get past the Yankees, was pretty bad from a talent standpoint, which being late to integrate certainly didn't help).  I'd add Hornsby on the bench as well but there's really no good argument for Hornsby over Morgan, whose five year peak is one of the most dominant stretches by any player in baseball not named Bonds.  Hornbsy has to take hits for the era he played in (second only to the late 90s-early 00s era for run scoring environment), as well as his poor fielding, and I think there's a legitimate hit to give him for fact that team's couldn't wait to get rid of him pretty consistently through his career.

 

The other thing I like about Rory's list is looking over it just gives me a glow from a lifetime of watching great baseball play.  Not only did I watch 6 of the 9 in their prime; 5 of the 9 on Rory's list I remember their rookie years.  It's been a good baseball watching life.

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Paapfly
Paapfly

 @butcherboy  @leeruss7 If Chris Q allows it, maybe I'll explain my choice of Pedro a bit more thoroughly. What I've discovered here it seems, though, is just how underrated Pedro Martinez must be. He's a first-ballot Hall of Famer, and I don't think enough people realize it. He won only 219 games, and I think maybe that's the trouble. 

 

Walter Johnson ERA+ = 147

Sandy Koufax ERA+ = 131

Bob Gibson ERA+ = 128 

Roy Halladay ERA+ = 139

Johan Santana ERA+ = 142

 

Pedro? He has a career ERA+ of 154, which is best all-time for a starting pitcher. The only pitcher in baseball history above him is Mariano Rivera, another first ballot Hall of Famer and, of course, a reliever.

 

Here: http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/earned_run_avg_plus_career.shtml

 

So, ya, I'd take Pedro to win a game over each of these guys. Peak-Pedro is simply the best.

RogerM
RogerM

 @Paapfly I don't think there's a doubt about Pedro.  Johnson's numbers were extraordinary, but in my mind he takes a pretty big hit for the era in which he played.  He just wasn't competing against the overall level of athletes that Pedro was, and of course, then Pedro had the disadvantage of pitching into the teeth of the steroids era as well.  Johnson was pitching in a day when you could essentially just throw a fastball all day and get by.  In fact, after Pedro I'd probably vote for Clemens, Maddux and Johnson before I got to any of the old timers, and of the old guys the one I might pick first is Lefty Grove.  He lost a pretty important part of his potential major league career, so that could bias me on that choice.

Chris Quick
Chris Quick

 @Paapfly  @butcherboy   @leeruss7 Pedro's peak is absolutely bonkers. It's a very good choice.

grahamdude
grahamdude

 @Paapfly I voted for Pedro as well. His 1997-2003 numbers are just insane: 118-36, 2.20 ERA, 0.94 WHIP, 1,761 strikeouts, 11.3 SO/9, 5.59 SO/BB, 213 ERA+, 51.0 WAR (which is more than a number of HOF pitchers like Catfish Hunter did their entire careers.) To me, the only pitcher who might be better for peak value is Koufax.

butcherboy
butcherboy

How about Bob Gibson or Sandy Koufax, Pedro really?

leeruss7
leeruss7

I can accept that they're all arguably the best with one major exception:  Pedro Martinez?  Really?  Best of all time?

k9_2458
k9_2458

 @leeruss7 If the argument really is one guy to go out and win one game, 99-2000 Pedro is absolutely the best choice.

leeruss7
leeruss7

Koufax, 1963-66; Gibson, 1968-69; Marichal, 1963-66, 1968; Feller, 1939-40, 1946-47; Mathewson,  1905, 1907-09.  Even Gooden,  1984-86 if we're focusing on a year or two. 

 

Not to mention that if you're going to focus on just a couple or a few great seasons, why isn't Hack Wilson on the list?  Or Ricky Henderson?

 

I can at least buy the argument for everybody on Rory's list except Martinez.  Really good pitcher with a couple of great years, but not a great pitcher

RogerM
RogerM

 @leeruss7 I don't understand you're argument against Pedro as applied in favor of Koufax.  Not only does Koufax have a very very short peak (and nothing of value before that peak) but he did it in an environment that gave him every conceivable advantage.  His peak entirely coincided with essentially the second dead ball era (the flip side of Koufax reputation is the extraordinarily undervaluation of Frank Howard, who I've been saying for at least a decade is easily the most deserving HOFer of anybody who's not in).  And not only was MLB in general going through the lowest scoring era since the 20s, but Koufax had the benefit of pitching in the single greatest pitching friendly stadium in baseball.  It's well known that after the '68 season mounds were "lowered".  That's both true and untrue.   What they really were was standardized; prior to that there really wasn't a defined standard height that was monitored and controlled by MLB.  As a result, mound heights varied significantly from stadium to stadium, and as Bill James once wrote, you needed a shirpa to find the top of the mound at Dodger Stadium, which in addition to its other atmospheric conditions gave pitchers an unprecedented advantage there.  Pedro on the other hand, had his peak during the greatest offensive era in baseball history.  He was putting up ERA's under 2.00 when run scoring was cartoonishly high.  Between 1997-2003 he had ERA's of 1.90, 2.89, 2.07, 1.74, 2.39, 2.26, and 2.22.  Even giving Koufax a bump for pitching about 200 more innings during his seix year peak, I don't see an argument for saying Koufax peak matched Pedro's given the different environment's they pitched in, and Pedro's vastly superior ERA+ during his peak compared to Koufax' makes that point very well.

k9_2458
k9_2458

 @leeruss7 1999 Pedro Martinez K/BB 13.22 the highest qualified ratio by a SP of all time. The third lowest FIP ever behind a season by Christy Mathewson and one by Walter Johnson. (Fangraphs) 2000 ERA- of 35 the lowest ever (1999 came in at 9th all time). Those two seasons are easily two of the greatest seasons by a SP of all time by almost any measure.

 

Again, if the premise is that you're looking for the best SP of all time to win a game, or to play for a season, Pedro from 1999 or 2000 is absolutely the BEST choice.

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AndreFlipCastille
AndreFlipCastille

Been reading for awhile and I just wanna say that I love this site good job. And Babe Ruth hitting 6th!!! Explain yourself!!

grahamdude
grahamdude

Rory, thank you very much for writing this and for participating in my project. Glad to call you my friend.