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lartimber
lartimber

How much does the movie "money ball" have to do with this discussion. It would be good if the giants found a way to stay out of double plays, but that is managing isn't it?

cameron datzker
cameron datzker

I think that Brian Sabean doesn't care. I think that if The SF Giants have a down year then what Sabean does will have consequences.

bradley emden
bradley emden

A nice side bar to most of the above arguments is Barry Lamar Bonds. He was both passive on bad pitches and aggressive on good pitches. Pitch selection is major. Bengie Molina actually hit fairly well against teams that put the ball over the plate, but teams that took advantage of his overly aggressive style on bad pitches made him look bad. I don't care if you are middle of the lineup ie; Bonds, or Belt, or leadoff, pitch selection is skillset. Taking advantage of the ability to discern which pitches are more immently hittable, and those more likely to be called strikes, is a valuable, and under-rated tool. Bonds got better at it as his career progressed. Last year Sandoval made some minor strides in pitch selection skills. Whether you are passive or aggressive, a contact guy or not, pitch selection skills make a player better.

campanari
campanari

It's my sense that when the Giants' staff talks against an overly passive approach, they are focusing on hitters such as one finds in the middle of the order, such as Belt. From such batters, they want hits rather than walks; and here one can easily see their point. I don't recall their making that sort of comment about batters whose role is different, unless of course the batter's passivity results from his feeling overmastered, and so being scared to swing (e.g., Fred Lewis). I'd add that the wOBA figures cited above surprise me by their being so close to being the same, with only a .008 spread. The spread is so slight that were one to depend on those figures alone, plate discipline would seem pretty irrelevant, and the more so because one can't control for other factors that might differentiate the groups of patient batters from the groups of wild swingers.

oldjacket
oldjacket

As far as the first bit goes, you can believe whatever you want about what the FO believes, so long as you can reconcile it with the fact that the Giants have been last or second to last in the NL for every plate discipline related metric since Bonds left. I would discourage drawing any strong conclusions from any of the above analysis. I'm just trying to show that some minor improvements in the analysis turn Fletcher's negative result into a positive one. I'm not really trying to prove anything about plate discipline.

campanari
campanari

But you *are* trying to prove something about plate discipline, oldjacket/Otis. You write, "Does the front office understand that poor plate discipline is big part of the reason why the Giants are consistently amongst the poorest offenses in the NL? Either they do, and are making excuses, or they don’t, and are enthusiastically taking their team in the wrong direction." Doesn't that presume that poor plate discipline leads to poor hitting? And you in fact agree that your wOBA figures indicate, as I wrote above, that the effect--based on the statistical analysis you provide--is slight: "The correlation between selectiveness and hitting results isn’t terribly strong." Either the analytic tool is in some crucial way faulty, and a better one would show that selectiveness has a strong effect on hitting results, or poor plate discipline is not "a big part" of the Giants' hitting badly. Simply saying it is, as Bradley Emden does below, is to make empty claims, blowing smoke over the cracker barrel in the off season. Your whole rational and statistical mode of argument, which I applaud, would seem to indicate you want to avoid and replace that kind of stuff. What am I missing when I allege that your saying the connection between plate discipline and performance "isn't terribly strong" is inconsistent with, or contradicts, your saying that the Giants' poor plate discipline is a big reason for their poor plate performance?

oldjacket
oldjacket

I didn't really think anyone would think that assertion would have anything to do with the straight-forward and admittedly simplistic analysis presented above. But, I suppose you've proven me wrong there.

JGK
JGK

It would have been nice to see what the "slight negative correlation" was. Is it significant (let's say <0.05) even if slight? It is also possible that you are asking two different questions even if phrased in a similar manner. I like the approach of looking at only the first pitch, but would use the entire data set of players. Why do I like looking at only the first pitch? Here is where I delve into conventional wisdom rather than data but here goes .... Pitchers are often throwing a fastball first pitch trying to get ahead in the count or at least very often trying to throw a first pitch strike. Batters often watch the first pitch go by without any thought of swinging at it early in the game. The theory must go that sacrificing a strike allows a batter to get a better read on a pitcher which will confer an advantage later in the game or at bat, larger than the disadvantage of being down 0-1. I am not sure if I buy this though. Anyways that first pitch if often ripe for the taking because it may be the most "hittable" pitch in the count (unless the count goes to 3-X). So I think it is an interesting question to ask if batters that swing at first pitches get on base more (so maybe OBP is more appropriate than OPS of the more simple metrics).

oldjacket
oldjacket

I didn't think most people would be interested, (and I also don't put much stock into correlational p-values) but here you are. The correlation is -.10. P-value is pretty high (.20), but that's because I'm only using one season's worth of data here.