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marc
marc

If you look at Sanchez' overall numbers (in addition to the above and let's forget 2011) he's worth something. As is (probably) Zito. If only because past the top 3, who is there? Vogelsong/Surkamp aren't really any better. This is all not a very good problem to have, but it's the way it is, and if you have to pick two for #4 & #5 I think Sanchez has to be one of them.

Ryan
Ryan

'When he's on, he's on' seems to trump the debate. One of the issues here is a tight payroll which includes Sanchez coming in at about 6 million. Zito is getting paid no matter what, but 5-5.5 million can be saved by pegging Surkamp to compete for the 5th spot with Zito and packaging Sanchez to fill one of those positions of need (SS, CF, LF/RF). But most of you are right, he's not going anywhere and Surkamp will provide nice depth in AAA where he can get some seasoning. The disappointment is the hit that Sanchez' trade value took once 2011 started. Maybe he has a great season and goes wire to wire with SF and into FA 2012 with a serious buzz, maybe Surkamp pushes him out and he gets traded at the deadline, and/or maybe it's 2011 redux and his value becomes totally deflated.

@Joeneverleft
@Joeneverleft

Agree with all your statements 1 through 5. He has incredible ability to make hitters miss the ball. He's a guy who can bail the team out of a jam all by himself. I also think his injury last year contributed significantly to his disappointing performances. Sanchez' maturity. I think that is at issue. Don't forget, Felipe' old school hard-headedness almost ruined him when he first came up, always seemingly putting him into a situations that worked against his development. Some of his offhand statements, and seeming nonchalance were indicators of his immaturity from last season. I think he was working under the false assumption that once you reach a certain level of high achievement, his successes would be never-ending. Also, he has always tended to struggle when he lets the homeplate umpire get in his dome.. Thats a matter of emotional maturity. He fights himself. Like the gent above says, 'Sanchez has the stuff to be a top pitcher any season". He can certainly pitch pressure games too. If not for Sanchez in Game 162 in 2010, we're still griping about the two biggest back to back collapses in SF Giants history. 2010 and 2011. I think this is a season where he either breaks out and dominates, or just goes the way of Oliver Perez and others who just ran out of what it takes to keep progressing, and as a result, go backwards. When he is on, he's as exciting a pitcher to watch as anybody. A left-handed power pitcher with demonstrated dominance in pressure situations is not somebody that can be replaced readily. Plus one has to consider that continued dominance by the Giants pitching staff is not guaranteed, especially with season after season of minor league offense, wearing arms down. No way Giants should let him go based on what we know, which is not always the case. Sabean and Bochy are going to have to do something neither of them has done on a regular basis in years, and that is bring in healthy, dependable offensive help

RMerrell
RMerrell

Would a good team accept a player as their 5th starter that is very nearly a .500 pitcher? I would say YES! He is one good season below .500 now, and can possibly become one of baseballs best. Many a pitcher has turned careers around much later than this. But the fact remains that we have bigger fish to fry than committing big bucks to sign a 5th starter, who may not even be any better. The problem most people have with Sanchez is his inconsistency. One minute he's blowing batters away, the next he's loading the bases. He's the most frustrating pitcher I have seen in years. So give him the ball every 5th day and hope for the best.

dapon
dapon

be more patient with LH-SP, especially "a high K-rate" that he did. that's all I can say.

Walter Guest
Walter Guest

Sanchez has the stuff to be a top pitcher any season. You dump him at your peril.

strikethrower
strikethrower

Jonathan Sanchez is probably the most exciting of all the Giant's pitchers to watch when he is on his game. I believe that he was dealing with a tired arm last year and suffered some injuries that put him down. I am hoping that this will be his breakout year to silence his critics. He has put up some great statistics to show that he is capable. The Giants don't win the NL West and get into the playoffs without the pitching of JSan in 2010. In the win over San Diego not only did he pitch five scoreless innings, but he hit the triple and scored the run that proved to be the winning run.

Robert Haymond
Robert Haymond

Of course there was Tommy Byrne (NYY) who pitched for many years until he was 38. You can look him up.

Robert Haymond
Robert Haymond

Sandy Koufax: First six years as a major leaguer with the Brooklyn Dodgers, he won 36 games and lost 40. In his second six years (after which he retired), he won 139 games and lost only 47. Who would have figured? In his first six years with Brooklyn, Koufax walked 405 batters while striking out 683. In his last six years, he walked only 414 while striking out 1,712. And, for all erstwhile pundits, please consider Jonathan Sanchez again.

rog61
rog61

Don't underestimate the importance of the fact that the strike zone was enlarged almost exactly in the middle of those two six year periods. Raising the upper edge o the zone brought Koufax' curve into the zone more often.

aGIANTfan
aGIANTfan

So are we saying that my Sanchez for Denard Span or Melky Cabrera scenario is dead in the water?

strikethrower
strikethrower

I like both Denard Span and Melky Cabrera as options for the Giants. But no way do I trade Jonathan Sanchez.

warrengreshes
warrengreshes

One thing you forgot to mention; while Sanchez has a high walk rate, he has the lowest hit rate. In 2010 his BAA was the best in the NL, as were his hits per 9 innings. How many #4 or 5 starters go 13-9 with a 3.07 ERA and 205 K's?

Ryan
Ryan

Maybe there's some potential for a deal for Carlos Quentin. Sanchez would allow them to trade Danks or Floyd for prospects. Giants throw in another prospect in the deal.

Rxmeister
Rxmeister

The only thing worse than agonizing over Sanchez starts is watching Zito or Surkamp pitch and being down six runs by the second inning. Sanchez at his most agonizing still manages to keep you in the game.

marcellosfg
marcellosfg

I think part of the problem is that Sanchez gets a worse rap than he deserves due to how amazing the top 3 (and maybe 4?) are. He just looks so awful by comparison, and that's not entirely fair. I am as guilty of this as anyone, as I can't stand watching him pitch anymore. That said, we should probably keep him around just to remind us all that not every high upside pitching prospect reaches that upside. Lord knows we have enough evidence to the contrary of that over the last few years.

rog61
rog61

And really, Sanchez wasn't ever considered a high upside pitcher. It's a tremendous credit to their scouting and player (pitcher) development people that they've gotten 700 league average innings out of a 27th round draft pick from a NAIA school that most team's probably never even scouted (and certainly didn't manage to see a decent major league starter there if they did catch him).

strikethrower
strikethrower

Jonathan Sanchez was the Giant's #2 pitching prospect behind Tim Lincecum. He threw five no-hitters in college and is the only current Giant including Lincecum and Cain to have thrown a no-hitter in the bigs.

rog61
rog61

Sanchez was the Giants #2 prospect (and #59 on BA's top 100) going into the 2007 season. He had already thrown 40 ip in the majors, having made the leap to the majors after only about 30 IP total above Low A ball. In Sanchez write up the year he was their #2 prospect, the first line said "Sanchez profiles as a quality starter." the year before, following his first full season in the Low A South Atlantic League, Sanchez had been the teams #6 prospect (behind Merkin and ahead of Schierholtz). John Manual (who was doing the Gianrs rankings back then) has said that he ranked Sanchez very aggressively because he believed in the Giants ability to evaluate and develop pitching. That said, they noted that he had mechanical troubles keeping his arm slot and he had at that point only two reliable pitches. His upside was seen as a mid rotation starter. Ultimately all of those comments have been pretty accurate. He's been a quality starter with mechanical problems and some pitches that come and go. I'm not sure of the relevance of no hitters at any level to how he was viewed as a prospect.

marcellosfg
marcellosfg

True, although I was thinking of all the "if he improves his control...Randy Johnson" stuff. But that probably wasn't totally realistic in the first place.

rog61
rog61

I think you're quick side note is the lynchpin in the calculus for whether to keep Sanchez or not. If they cut him loose, is it to use that $5-6 mil as a part of a pot that brings Beltran or some Beltrany bat back. If they, say, non-tendered (or traded) Sanchez (and Keppinger), bought out Affeldt and traded Wilson, that makes for a pretty decent pot of payroll. But otherwise, I agree. Sanchez should be back and competing for the #4 spot next year, because a Vogelsong/Zito/Surkamp back of the rotation scares the beejesus out of me. Also, you forgot Assertion #6: on two different occasions Sanchez' pitching has sent us scrambling to the bar!

Chris Quick
Chris Quick

I'm going to start calling the $5-6M "Coco Crisp Money." We really did witness a definitive Sanchez start that time in DC. I think I'm pretty reserved to the fact that any money that is going to be spent, is going to be spent on a lateral-ish, non-BIG-BAT, upgrade. Maybe Willingham or someone like him.

Chris Quick
Chris Quick

But, you do agree that it's probably worth more to the Giants to bring back Sanchez and hope he has a 2009/2010 type season than to non-tender or trade him? It seems his value is so low right now that trading him is kinda silly.

Shankbone
Shankbone

This is Brian Sabean you're talking about, no way does Coco Crisp money start at 5-6MM. Absolutely you need to keep Sanchez because Surkamp needs another 1/2 year to year before next tryout, and Barry Zito is done. As fun as it is to fantasize about picking up another Vogelsong type on the cheap, 5-6MM for a fifth starter is a pretty good deal. Rainy Day Fund = Mini Vlad Mr Don Carlos.

rog61
rog61

Ummmm..... that's good fantasy! /drooling sounds.

Chris Quick
Chris Quick

That's like the Maddux Money(tm) Vlad Guerrero fantasy all over again!

rog61
rog61

Yes, I totally agree. I don't know that the FO agrees, but I do. My point was that letting him go would only be potentially worthwhile if it was part of a larger strategy to clear up some bigger monies that could really achieve some impact (as an aside, my Jose Reyes fantasies are going to have to be pried from cold, dead imagination).