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Chris Martinez
Chris Martinez

I want to correct a small typo. I wrote that Brown had almost three full years of pro ball before he was drafted. I meant to write that he had three full years of college ball. Sorry about that, guys.

Lyle
Lyle

Chris, what can you tell us about Adam Duvall? I know he's injured right now, but he has that mysterious quality that other organizations call "power." What kind of hitter does he appear to be? What might his best defensive position be? Does he seem too old for his league to you? And with which current or former major-leaguer might we reasonably compare him? Thanks!

Chris Martinez
Chris Martinez

Adam Duvall will be in next week's prospect mailbag. Thanks Lyle!

Roger
Roger

He's back tonight!

Chris Quick
Chris Quick

Just another thought to add this morning ... I think Gary Brown's ceiling is the good years of Juan Pierre and that's a pretty useful guy to have playing for your team. I know Juan Pierre is a laughing stock now, but there was a time (before he was vastly overpaid) where he was a pretty good player. Essentially he was a league average hitter, below average walk-rate, lots of contact, good defense, and good baserunning. That sounds a lot like what Brown COULD become to me.

LeviDavis
LeviDavis

I remember being on Kevin Goldstein's chat when he was drafted, and Goldstein called him "Juan Pierre with more power, which is a pretty good player."

@orgonedonor
@orgonedonor

I think a much better comp is Michael Bourn with more power. Brown is as fast or faster. They should have comparable GG-candidate defense. And Brown should have a slightly higher avg. Michael Bourn also strikes out a ton more (12% to 19% k rates). The walk rate is slightly edged in Bourn's favor though.

Rory Paap
Rory Paap

I was going to make the exact same comment, which is that I'll bet Brown ends up with more power. He'll end this season with double-digit home runs probably. Pierre has exactly one home run in almost 1500 career minor league plate appearances. He also gets hit by a lot of pitches, which sounds silly and may be just a fluke, but he did it at Fullerton, is doing it now, and if it's for real it might add a little cushion to his OBP. I think it's reasonable to say his ceilin is a TAD higher than Pierre's good years. Not much maybe, but some.

Matt
Matt

I'm not as ready as Curtis to dismiss Brown as a legitimate prospect. I think a .300 hitter with good defense and some speed can be a valuable major league starter...and that's probably Brown's upside. He's probably not going to walk much, and this severely limits his value as a lead-off man. But he might be OK hitting at the end of the lineup.

LeviDavis
LeviDavis

Again, you're basing your argument on faulty assumptions. You're assuming that a better CF is available, and the Giants won't go get him because Brown is there. That's how bar-room baseball works, not real life baseball.

Curtis
Curtis

>>preventing runs with defensive upgrades isn't nearly as dramatic as increasing runs scored with an OPS upgrade can be. Example: Boston has 135 more runs scored than the league average of 496 (a 27% increase). They have the highest OPS. The Giants have a less than average defense, but for sake of argument, let's say they have the league average defense. They have given up 420 runs. Are you telling me you think that if they had the best defense in the league, they would have given up only 307 runs to this point, (27% less)? No, of course not. Pitching is almost entirely responsible for preventing runs, not defense, especially with high strikeout rate staffs. So of course taking a run away is equal to adding a run, but defense doesn't take runs away at the same rate OPS adds them as the example above points out. I'd say defense it more like 5-10% of how OPS affects run differential. And obviously I don't value fWAR as much as oWAR or WAR, and Burrell crushes Pierre in both of those categories. But also, in lifetime runs created per game, Pierre is 4.6 compared to Pat Burrell's 6.2. And runs created per game is the offensive stat I value the most. Why? Because it's the most telling stat there is. Just sync up Runs Scored and Runs Created Per Game at the end of each and every year, the order of teams will almost mirror each other in those two categories. OPS is probably the 2nd best telling stat.

Chris Quick
Chris Quick

>> And preventing runs with defensive upgrades isn't nearly as dramatic as increasing runs scored with an OPS upgrade can be. I'm not sure what you mean, but respectfully, you're wrong. A run saved on defense is equal to a run created on offense. IF Brown turns out to be Juan Pierre, then the Giants are very fortunate. Baseball players come in all different kinds of skill-sets. I thought the Burrell career vs. Pierre career was interesting, but it seems to be something you've glossed over. They've created nearly equal value over their careers by doing completely different things.

Curtis
Curtis

It's not an assumption. If Brown is their future CF, then they will not acquire a CF for however long he's pumps out Juan Pierre numbers. Juan Pierre types taking away ABs from an average OPS guy hurts your team more than it helps. And preventing runs with defensive upgrades isn't nearly as dramatic as increasing runs scored with an OPS upgrade can be. The two are apples and oranges - can't compare them on a 1:1 scale. And with a high strikeout rate staff like the Giants, defense becomes even that much more negligible. People never factor in when you have a speed or defensive guy in the lineup, you are sacrificing a potential OPS guy in most cases. See Red Sox and Cardinals every year - their philosophy completely disregards speed yet every year they are near or at the top of runs scored per game. That can't be a coincidence. They would NEVER play or settle for a Juan Pierre type, even if he was free.

LeviDavis
LeviDavis

You're making too many assumptions here. One, you're assuming that he would be taking AB's away from someone more valuable, this at the moment is a fictional player. If a better player is on the team, he will get the playing time, Brown will not get it simply because of his speed and defense. Second, you're assuming a run scored is more valuable than a run prevented and that steals have no value, both faulty premises.

Curtis
Curtis

Just remember, when you insert somebody into your lineup cause he has "speed" or "defense," that's means you are opting for that over OPS (unless you have a Matt Kemp type). Ultimately this decision will lead to fewer runs judging by runs scored in correlation with OPS vs Team Defense and Stolen Bases. That's why I undervalue speed and defense, not cause I don't think they have value in itself, but because aside from Matt Kemp types, you're taking away a lineup spot from somebody with OPS.

Chris Quick
Chris Quick

Also, I agree with Rory that I can see Brown having more power than Pierre.

Chris Quick
Chris Quick

I think you're undervaluing the other types of things that Juan Pierre (and hopefully, Gary Brown) can do. From 2001-2007 Juane Pierre never had a fWAR season under 2.0 wins. His peak seasons (2003, 2004) were worth 4.4 and 4.7 wins. Those are All-Star caliber seasons. Defense and baserunning matter. I wrote a somewhat lengthy article on Brown back in April and touched on what he could become based on a few things: http://www.baycityball.com/2011/04/25/i-want-to-b... Brown's game will never be power. But, in his peak seasons, in a best case scenario, he should hit for a lot of contact, play great defense, run the bases well, and add value in a lot of "little" ways. Oh, and since you brought up Pat Burrell -- who is almost the exact opposite of Juan Pierre -- I thought you might find this interesting. Burrell, 1,628 career games, career 21.7 fWAR Pierre, 1,705 career games, career 26.8 fWAR

Curtis
Curtis

Was Juan Pierre ever good? Most his singles are infield hits or slaps only advancing runners 1 base at a time. 7 of his 12 seasons, he's had a sub .690 OPS. I think a team of 8 Juan Pierres in the lineup every night scores very little runs. Because he never walks and has no power, you basically need at least 3 hits in an inning just to score 1 run.... that's hard to do, especially watching the Giants every night try. I'd take 8 Pat Burrells over 8 Juan Pierres any day - and Pat Burrell doesn't even start for the Giants. Unless slap hitters that don't walk bat well over .300, I think they hurt your team more than help it.

LeviDavis
LeviDavis

Pierre has become a joke because teams overpaid him and kept playing him too long, so we forget that he was actually a good player.

LeviDavis
LeviDavis

Why would Brown struggle against lefties? Does anyone keep those numbers for college so we can see if Brown had reverse splits back then?

Rory Paap
Rory Paap

I'd love it if someone could track this down. By plate appearances, it appears he's sitting versus them in San Jose. It's odd for obvious reasons and he's doing very well versus LHP in what few plate appearances he has against them (1.000+ OPS). I don't know that anyone has said he struggles against them, has anyone? Or was it just someone noticing he's sitting against them?

LeviDavis
LeviDavis

"If Brown is still sitting against LHP and not walking as well in Richmond in 2012, then we can ask about his viability as an everyday outfielder." This is the line that set off that alarm in my head. Why would he continue to sit if there were no perceived problems against lefties? That is why I would be curious to look at his college numbers to see if there is any history, or a fluke based on the days he needs off. He's started almost every game, as far as I can tell, so it might just be flukey that he's faced so few lefties and had is scheduled days off when the team faced the few they did.

@orgonedonor
@orgonedonor

Brown has vastly improved his SB/CS in the past couple months. It was pretty mediocre for a while, in mid-June it was 28/11, and most of his CS were from getting picked off. That's a 71.7% success rate -- not great, not awful.

Chris Martinez
Chris Martinez

Holdover from stats classes I suppose. Better competition is a factor here too. My point is that Brown's tools exceed stolen bases and nitpicking it does him injustice.

Roger
Roger

That was my feeling regarding hte SB rate as well. Although 75% is certainly an acceptable success rate, especially if the offensive environment stays at this level for awhile. Regardless, I would think that learning to read pitchers, work on his jump, etc. are just more parts of developing his game and there's no reason to think we can't expect improvement in the future, since I'd guess his level of base stealing sophistication in college was something along the lines of: Run Fast. Go. Go. Go!

blandwilson
blandwilson

I'm a little late on this conversation, but it's worth pointing out that sitting Brown against lefties would be odd since he's .410/.466/.538 against them in those 78 ABs (milb.com as of Aug. 11). I understand that 78 ABs isn't a huge sample, but with that hot of a start, sitting him would be tough to defend. Also, why would you attribute his decreased SB rate to sample size rather than improved competition?

Chris Martinez
Chris Martinez

Okay I think we have something here. I looked at some splits for the Giants team against RHP and LHP. The team has 3250 at-bats against RHP...and 744 at-bats against LHP. Wow. I looked at the other teams in the league and most of them have similar splits, except for three clubs: Inland Empire (2929/1045 at-bats, against RHP/LHP respectively), Lancaster (2937/1070), and Rancho Cucamonga (2837/1163). Those three clubs are in the Southern Division, and teams tend to play most of their schedules within the division. So there it is. It is just a case of not enough lefties to go around. We all learned something today!

Chris Martinez
Chris Martinez

I'd like to see those numbers too, if I can find them. I assumed he was sitting against LHP. Rory and I briefly discussed the possibility over on Twitter and I said that there can't be a dearth of LHP in the Cal League; that would be the only other possibility as to why Brown isn't facing lefties.

Curtis
Curtis

Thanks for addressing my questions... Although I was a little bummed to find out that Surkamp only hits 89 on the gun. I know velocity isn't everything, but when all else fails, a 93-94 mph fastball sure is nice to fall back on. As far as other prospects, at least Sosa is getting roughed up a bit for Houston tonight (sucks it's against Zona though)... But if he'd thrown a shutout or something, I would have had to cry myself to sleep. I still think the Keppinger trade will be the worst when all is said and done. Yes, he bat's .290... But it's the most WORTHLESS .290 in baseball. Fontenot > Keppinger against right handers any day. Over/under on how many DPs Kepp is gonna ground into from now til the end of the season is 8. I'll take the over.

Chris Martinez
Chris Martinez

I'm really glad someone else hates that trade. I'm absolutely livid about acquiring two mediocre infielders, even if the prospects the Giants gave up are fading. It's downright vomitous. Although I'm glad I'm here. My boyfriend was witness to me flopping around on the floor and screaming injustices when I heard about the Wheeler trade. He didn't understand my outrage over trading a top pitching prospect for a rental outfielder.

Roger
Roger

I have to say I supported both those deals. The Keppinger deal reluctantly, since child proofing is never any fun; the Beltran deal more enthusiastically, although still with a feeling of bittersweet parting. The real problem with the Keppinger deal, imo, is that it's the end result of Burriss' failure to develop at all. It's also related to the Downs giveaway, but until Houston thinks he's actually worth playing over anybody, I guess I might have to give up my dream of what could have been with Matt. (Good God, now they're playing the mini-mite Jose Altuve over Downs? He was just in the Cal League about a month ago. In fact, wasn't he the one getting knee-buckled in that ubiquitous Wheeler gif?)

Chris Quick
Chris Quick

I think Otis called Jeff Keppinger "child proofing second base" which I think is about the best way any could have put it. I'd probably run Fontenot out there most nights -- especially against RHP -- but Keppinger's deal was a move that needed to be made. This team is just too banged up.

Chris Quick
Chris Quick

Hey Chris, love the first post! I added a few post tags to your post so it'll be easily searched for in the future.

Roger
Roger

This is probably too late to do people any good, but Surkamp's game against Harrisburg tonight is actually on MiLB.tv. And it's been a gem. So far a 2 hit SO with 9 Ks, including Bryce Harper twice. 1-0 thriller.

Chris
Chris

Great post-- several things I didn't know about Brown. And welcome-- look forward to reading your future posts