Article written by

Baseball writer... sort of.

27 comments
inkira
inkira

you think zack is a top prospect. you think he is going to be a fine pitcher. you know nothing about pitching. give thought to madison, timmy, matt, and even jonathan and consider zack's arm motion. i agree, there are right handers who compare to zack's arm motion, not the elite, but right handers have never been accused of knowing how to pitch. i am sure sabs knows about arm motion and i am sure it is not difficult for him to say zach is not in our future plans.

Al Dossola
Al Dossola

I'm not sure that shuttling Brandon Belt, back and forth, between Fresno and the Giants is the best way to treat the Giants most promising farmhand. Even with his still low Giants batting average, his OBA was .338. He put up some super numbers at Fresno, Connecticut, and San Jose over the last 1.5 years.. This business of shuttling him around is a good way to keep him from developing consistency. When are the Giants going to give Belt a real chance?

Aaron
Aaron

Since it's really not fair to select 2-3 good or bad trades at the deadline, I found the following info from: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/07/gm-trade-hi.... A small amount of excel formatting and we can see the deadline trades (just in the month of July) Sabean has made from 1997 to 2007 (note that this is a bit out of date). Thought it might at least be a little useful for discussion fodder, sorry if the formatting sucks... DateTradedReceivedGMTeam 7/16/1997Marcus JensenBrian JohnsonSmithTigers 7/18/1997Brandon LeesePat RappDombrowskiMarlins 7/29/1997Chad HartvigsonCory BaileyMelvinRangers 7/31/1997Lorenzo Barcelo, Mike Caruso, Keith Foulke, Bob Howry, Brian Manning and Ken ViningWilson Alvarez, Danny Darwin, and Roberto HernandezSchuelerWhite Sox 7/23/1998Darin BloodJoe CarterGillickOrioles 7/23/1998Jacob Cruz and Steve ReedShawon Dunston, Jose Mesa and alvin MormanHartIndians 7/31/1998Darryl Hamilton, Jim Stoops and a PTBNL: Jason BresterEllis BurksGebhardRockies 7/25/1999Jason Grilli and Nate BumpLivan HernandezDombrowskiMarlins 7/26/2000PTBNLEric GundersonAshBlue Jays 7/29/2000Scott LinebrinkDoug HenryHunsickerAstros 7/4/2001Bobby Estalella and Joe SmithBrian BoehringerCashmanYankees 7/24/2001Chris Magruder, Erasmo Ramirez and Todd OziasAndres GalarragaMelvinRangers 7/27/2001Felipe CrespoWayne GomesWadePhillies 7/30/2001Armando Rios and Ryan VogelsongJason Schmidt and John Vander WalLittlefieldPirates 7/31/2001Kevin Joseph and cashJason ChristiansenJockettyCardinals 7/28/2002Felix Diaz and Ryan MeauxKenny LoftonWilliamsWhite Sox 7/13/2003Clay Hensley and cashMatt HergesTowersPadres 7/24/2003Brian PowellCashWadePhillies 7/31/2003Kurt Ainsworth, Damian Moss and Ryan HannamanSidney PonsonFlanaganOrioles 7/16/2004Adam PettyjohnCashBeaneA's 7/30/2004Felix RodriguezRicky Ledee and Alfredo SimonWadePhillies 7/30/2005Yorvit Torrealba and Jesse FoppertRandy WinnBavasiMariners 7/22/2006Jeremy AccardoShea Hillenbrand and Vinnie ChulkRicciardiBlue Jays 7/28/2006Shairon MartisMike StantonBowdenNationals 7/31/2007Matt MorrisRajai Davis and a PTBNL: Stephen MacFarlandLittlefieldPirates

Curtis
Curtis

It should be Beltran LF, Torres CF, Schierholtz RF against right handed pitching. Beltran LF, Rowand CF and Ross RF against left handed pitching. This is a no brainer... a 5 year old could evaluate their splits and come up with this. In other words, that's not how the Giants will do it. Ross and Rowand should never ever play against righties. Just like Torres and Schierholtz should never ever play against lefties. Just like Huff should never ever start over Brandon Belt. Nice knowing ya, Burrell.

dyehard
dyehard

what is Torres' new role?

LeviDavis
LeviDavis

Beltran is not a CF, unless the Giants are delusional...then again, they think Aubrey Huff is a better option than Brandon Belt right now.

Steve
Steve

I don't see how there's even a question of what the OF lineup should look like. Baggs keeps saying Bochy will have to shift guys around, but Beltran in LF every night is clearly be best option on both sides of the ball. I also wholeheartedly trust Sabean and Tidrow to evaluate pitchers (Evans is a better evaluator of hitters). I'm no expert, but Wheeler's motion has always made me nervous as well. When his front foot plants, his elbow is still pointed toward the sky, rather than his hand. Who else has a motion like that? Strasburg, Wood, Ryan, Burnett. All those guys have/had nasty hammers, but they all missed a ton of time to injury, mostly Tommy John.

I Like Eat Crayons
I Like Eat Crayons

MadBum is only a year older than Wheeler, but far more advanced so I don't feel that bad giving up Wheeler in the deal. With his walk rate, is he the second coming of Jonathan Sanchez???

Chris
Chris

but Wheeler is still on the cheap Sanchez is close to getting paid. Heck even if he turns out to be a solid inexpensive 4th starter that could easily be more valuable than 2mth of Beltran.

DaleGribble
DaleGribble

Madison is a superhuman at any age, let alone for someone turning 22 this month. Not a fair comparison, Wheeler still has a lot of upside but yes, his control is iffy.

Josh
Josh

I'm hoping that one of Ross, Schierholtz or Beltran can handle CF. All are significantly better than Torres offensively. If one of the other guys can take CF for innings 1-7 and let Torres replace Ross in the 8th inning of close games, that'd be ideal. This deal looks even better if it greatly reduces the Torres/Rowand at-bats from our lineup, like cutting free an anchor.

RIO
RIO

only problem is that Torres is our only lead-off hitter

Josh
Josh

Torres has an OBP of .325. This year, he's no leadoff hitter. I think Schierholtz could slide into the leadoff spot and be at least no worse than Torres has been at getting on base, while providing more power and RBIs. The fewer ABs Torres ( and especially ) Rowand get the rest of the way, the better.

Chris
Chris

"I’m very, very comfortable with the Giants’ ability to evaluate their pitching prospects. I really, really am. The Giants know pitchers." Are these the same people that gave Nathan and Liriano to the twins. Liriano got derailed by getting hurt but he still had a great year. Nathan was also pretty darn good until he got hurt.

LeviDavis
LeviDavis

Liriano. Okay, now name another one. Take that trade out, and Sabean has a great trade record, particularly when it comes to trading pitching prospects. TINSTAPP, after all. I really wanted to see Wheeler pitch, but his control problems plus the unbelievable blowout rate of pitching prospects leads me to accept a trade I didn't really want to see happening.

@paapfly
@paapfly

Sabean is roasted for this trade constantly, and he really should be. But you have to understand what Nathan and Liriano were at the time. Nathan was a reliever coming off an excellent season with an injury history and a career 104 ERA+. Liriano was a 20-year-old lefty in Single-A with great stuff and poor command. That trade sucked, but it's time to get over it. If you don't think the Giants know anything about evaluating pitching, you're delusional.

Chris
Chris

I will admit my knowledge level of minor league players is not that great. Heck I only event started paying attention to the minors a few years ago. So it is safe to say I am not an expert. But the post brings up the Freddy trade that worked out but the Nathan/Liriano one did not work out. Are there another examples where the Giants traded away young pitching and it either worked or did not work? A sample size of two is not large enough for me to make a judgement.

Curtis
Curtis

What about Beltran to the Astros in 2004, who gave up John Buck and Octavio Dotel? Dotel and Buck have had solid careers. But, I think the Astros would do it all over again if given the choice. Beltran had a .923 OPS for half of the season with the Astros (acquired June 24th), and he was Babe Ruth/Barry Bonds like in the playoffs, almost carrying them to the World Series.

@paapfly
@paapfly

Strange sentiment. Ryan Hannaman never pitched above Class-A. Damian Moss had an ERA of 6.22 and 16.88 across two seasons and 58.2 innings, and was gone thereafter. Kurt Ainsworth pitche for two seasons with a 9.82 ERA in 33 innings. Ponson threw 68 decent innings (114 ERA+) befor a lackluster start in the divisional series. What about that discourages rental players?

LeviDavis
LeviDavis

What players do you regret them giving up? Kurt Ainsworth? Damien Moss? Ryan Hannaman?

Mark
Mark

The Sidney Ponson trade was a wonderful example why you don't trade prospects for rentals.

LeviDavis
LeviDavis

Joe Fontentot for Rob Nen, Jason Grilli and Nate Bump for Livan Hernandez (another under-appreciated Giant), Ryan Vogelsong for Jason Schmidt (other pieces involved there), Jerome Williams for LaTroy Hawkins (didn't work out, but let's not forget how high we were on Williams), Tim Alderson for Freddy Sanchez. The point is, Sabean has traded away a lot of pitchers that were highly touted, and with one exception, none amounted to anything, certainly not anything to regret trading. He seems to know which ones to hang onto and which ones are trade-able. I like Wheeler better than any of those guys, but Sabean has earned the benefit of the doubt on this one area.

Curtis
Curtis

The free agent signings are Sabean's downfall, not so much the trading. But there were a few other trades (involving pitching) that were notable. First of all, Giants rarely had good prospects from the Matt Williams era to the Matt Cain era, so not too many trades happened involving prospects. But the three most notable aside from Nathan/Liriano trade: 1. Keith Foulke and Bobby Howry for Wilson Alvarez, Danny Darwin and Roberto Henandez. Howry and Foulke went on to be studs. 2. David Aardsma for Letroy Hawkins. Aardsma is hurt, but came into his own in 2009 and most of 2010 as one of the best closers in the American League. Regardless, just the year in 2009 by Aardsma makes this trade lopsided even if he doesn't come back. 3. The Jason Schmidt trade, obviously a total rip in favor of the Giants. But when the prospect gets hurt, it's easy to say it was a great trade. If Vogelsong didn't get hurt, we very well might be saying, "Can't believe we traded him," after knowing what we know now about Vogey.

@paapfly
@paapfly

Jesse Foppert and Yorvit Torrealba for Randy Winn. But it's more than just the trades he's made. It's about the pitchers he held on to and developed: Lincecum, Cain, Bumgarner, Sanchez, Wilson, and Romo. And then guys like Vogelsong that they gave a minor league invite to and turned them into gold. The man behind the curtain is said to be Dick Tidrow. And when they arrive? Dave Righetti is pretty incredible, too.

Kellin
Kellin

It's also appropriate to look at that trade in the context of the Giants org's (Magowan's) mentality at the time. ie. Barry Bonds is the best player in baseball and do everything possible to win right now while we still have him.

Chris
Chris

Sorry it is going to take a WS ring (or at the very least a WS appearance) for me to feel good about this trade. I hate trading a top prospect for a 2 mth rental.