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Nate
Nate

Space Quest games were awesome.

Chris Quick
Chris Quick

I feel like a grandpa when I talk about them.

Liem
Liem

Although I agree that Whiteside and Stewart should be replaced at some point, we need to remember that the Giants don't "need" to make a deal yet. As of this morning the Giants were 2.5 games ahead of Arizona and 6 games ahead of Colorado, so there is no immediate imperative to improve, regardless of whether these leads are sustainable. From a negotiating standpoint, these leads are buying Sabean precious time until something else develops that might give the Giants greater bargaining leverage. For example, if a month from now the Braves suddenly lose 3 bullpen arms to injury, Atlanta could conceivably trade David Ross in exchange for Castillo and some minor league arms in order to stay in the division race against Philly. Of course, this is an unlikely scenario, but the point remains that so long as the Giants continue their run (regardless of whether it's driven by luck or not) they can wait for others to get "desperate" and try to exploit that desperation by getting a better deal. So for now, I'm in favor of Sabean sitting tight and not pulling any triggers.

Rory Paap
Rory Paap

I like this logic quite a lot. Liem has me pretty sold. Of course, if they pile a few losses together I'll lose my wits in a hurry.

@crazycrabbers
@crazycrabbers

I came to the same conclusion. The Giants are making an addition in a position of need and trading from a position of depth. Here is a quick way to measure the loss, which was more noticeable how bad the catchers are now that Posey is gone or how the bullpen performed before and after Casilla was injured? I haven't noticed too much of a difference in the bullpen but it is pretty glaring that the Giants are starting guys that would be fighting for a starting job in AAA right now. If we want to get technical and compare the values I did a quick trade calculation on my site and even with next year taken into account this trade is a good deal for the Giants. http://www.crazycrabbers.com/2011/06/yorvit-torre...

AVE_fan
AVE_fan

Yorvit has been playing against the Giants for a few years now--we fans don't like him very much. Frankly, half-a-game improvement as "replacement" doesn't go far enough to compensate for his defensive liabilities and lack of familiarity with the staff--which can't be achieved in half a season. You think two weeks is enough to make an assessment that YT would be any better than Giant's current catching tandem--you'd be wrong in that assessment. Ask the Giant's pitchers before you go off *fixing that which isn't broke*. Two thumbs down regarding a trade for Yorvit.

oldjacket
oldjacket

I wonder why everyone thinks the Giants pitching staff is so brittle that every time the Giants change catchers they'll fall apart.

Chris Quick
Chris Quick

We heard the same stuff when Posey became the starter last year. It's one of those baseball things, I think. I can imagine Tim Lincecum getting really pissed when Yorvit keeps calling for knuckleballs.

Alex
Alex

I wonder the same thing every time I hear someone say how impressive it is that Posey was able to handle the staff last year, or that the Giants need a special catcher to handle their pitching staff. My intuition is that the better the pitching staff, the more room there is for catchers to call suboptimal games without noticeably affecting the outcome of games. I've never played catcher, but it seems to me that if the pitcher has several plus pitches, then pitch choice will have a smaller effect on the outcome of the game, no? Is Yorvit a better option than Bengie? Bengie will have the freshest legs he has had in a long time and will cost nothing in trade. Give him a low ball contract with lots of incentives for performance, put him in the minors for a couple of weeks and see if he can earn his way onto the team. He might agree to that, he told the press he would sign with the Giants if they ask. The only possible holdup would be the money.

Chris Quick
Chris Quick

I like a good counterpoint. Thanks for posting. >> Yorvit has been playing against the Giants for a few years now--we fans don't like him very much. I must have missed the fan memo detailing that I must dislike Torrealba. Can someone forward it to my email? >> Frankly, half-a-game improvement as "replacement" doesn't go far enough to compensate for his defensive liabilities and lack of familiarity with the staff--which can't be achieved in half a season. I'd wager that Yorvit is approximately a 1 to 1.5 win upgrade over Whiteside/Stewart. That might sound small, but it's a nice upgrade, especially when you consider the alleged price of getting Yorvit. Also, regarding defensive abilities, have you seen Whiteside lately? He looks terrible. He had a PB in last night's game and he continues to look slow behind the dish. The Fan Scouting report has Torrealba between -2 and 4 runs over the past two years. I don't think it's crazy to say he's an average defender. >> Ask the Giant's pitchers before you go off *fixing that which isn't broke*. I'm pretty sure a collective .594 OPS by Giants' catchers since Posey went down constitutes broken. Not only have Whiteside/Stewart combined for a .594 OPS, but the defense has been a problem. You're in denial if you think that Torrealba isn't a pretty solid upgrade over two career minor league journeymen.

AVE_fan
AVE_fan

Sorry--Torrealba's catcher's ERA (cERA) is by far the worst on the Rangers. Why else do you think they would be willing to unload him. Also your *anectodal* comments about Whiteside *looking slow* or *terrible* isn't born out by the facts. As far as a single PB in last night's game--the pitch (slider) was so nasty the batter missed it by over a foot--and how do you know for a fact that MBg didn't cross up Whiteside on it. Making *trade* judgement on a single play is pretty irresponsible, IMO. I noticed you didn't mention his triple or BB in last night's game--why is that, if you're going to mention the PB? Whiteside has gone from a once a week catcher to a five-now four day a week catcher. It can certainly take its toll in the beginning. If he's limited to 4 games a week he'll do fine, and besides, compared to Posey, is an *artist* at tagging people out at the plate.

Rory Paap
Rory Paap

Totally agree that Casilla is expendable, specifically because he's lost a few inches on the heater and doesn't have good control to make up for the loss of "stuff."

Rory Paap
Rory Paap

Stewart and Whiteside suck. Eyeball test, stats, prior knowledge... Everything pretty much confirms this. That said, I don't think replacing them is necessarily urgent. I do think, though, that attempthing to repeat with these two is asking for trouble/ a division series knockout. cERA is useless... Not because Chris says, but because smart people like Bill James say so. There's too much year-to-year variability and the fact that certain catchers catch certain pitchers, that certain catchers caught pitchers against certain teams, etc. It just doesn't tell is much. Eli Whitsides "hitting," poor blocking and terrible throwing tells us something. Also, do you think the Giants are looking for a catcher right now, after just a couple weeks, if they think Whiteside is adequate? It seems the Giants' activity in the market should tell us quite a lot.

O&B4L
O&B4L

Firstly, I like Whiteside. As a nice predictable, once a week backup. But he's a liability on both sides of the plate. If you think that was the first ball in the dirt that Whiteside has missed and should have been able to block....you're not watching or you're crazy! While his quickness behind the plate is questionable in terms of blocking, his arm has been outright atrocious. A walk given to someone with moderate speed has practically been a double since Posey went down. Yorvit would be a HUGE upgrade over either/both of the guys we've got and there are plenty of options to replace Casilla with (especially if he can only bring it at 93 mph this year)

AVE_fan
AVE_fan

Sorry--Torrealba's catcher's ERA (cERA) is by far the worst on the Rangers. Why else do you think they would be willing to unload him. I can think of a lot better use for $3mil than to pay Torrealba with it. IMO, this is a SUCKER TRADE and I don't think Sabean is stupid enough to do it, but, if he does, will regret it by the end of the season...just sayin'. Already, Torrealba's skills are terrible, and won't get any better. He can't catch 5 days a week either (and be good at it). Just because YOU say cERA is useless, doesn't make it so. IF YOU DON'T GIVE UP A LOT OF RUNS--you win a good share of the games.

Chris Quick
Chris Quick

cERA is useless. >> Whiteside has gone from a once a week catcher to a five-now four day a week catcher. It can certainly take its toll in the beginning. This seems to bolster my point for getting someone who can catch full-time without having his already limited skills diminish to the point of terribleness.

oldjacket
oldjacket

Beat me to it. Here's Baggs on the Texas connection: "According to my sources, the Giants asked about Yorvit Torrealba, not Taylor Teagarden. But Texas wanted Santiago Casilla, and offered no relief on the $3.25 million Torrealba would make next season." Uh. They want an often injured reliever who could find the strikezone with a map in one out of the last three years? I know it's not my money, but I'd do that in a heartbeat.

Chris Quick
Chris Quick

I would trade Casilla for Yorvit so fast your head would spin. The Giants essentially have Casilla 2.0 in Fresno (Kroon) and regardless, Casilla is our lowest leveraged reliever. It shouldn't take much to replace him. Throw in velocity concerns, injury stuff, and it seems like a slam dunk -- even with paying Vorvit's salary.

Matt
Matt

It seems to be that it's not Casilla that was a stumbling block (any of us and surely the front office can see that Casilla is an easily replaceable part) but the money for 2012. 3.25 doesn't seem an awful lot to me, albeit for a replacement catcher. Gives a solid option to catch 2 days a week (3?) to ease Posey back in/play him at first. Alternatively, trade him for the Casilla replacement in the winter!