Article written by

19 comments
Liem
Liem

Thank you for raising this issue, Chris. Pitching workload is a topic that has become of great interest to me recently. In my brief research into the discussion surrounding pitching workloads, I have discovered that this debate is, like the debate surrounding many other sports topics, guided by pseudo-science and anecdotes rather than solid objective facts. The exception to this discovery is Rany Jazayerli's work in Baseball Prospectus, which I have found to be the most comprehensive and convincing study on the effect of workload and a pitcher's effectiveness and health. To summarize his conclusion, Jazayerli argues that pitching itself is not necessarily harmful, but pitching "while tired is dangerous to a pitcher's arm." If Jazayerli's findings are correct, as I am inclined to believe, the Giants should be able to use Bumgarner down the stretch without jeopardizing his long term health, so long as they do not "overuse" him in any given appearance. Of course, I put the term "overuse" in scare quotes because I believe the metrics by which one can measure a pitcher's fatigue are not very well studied themselves. In Jazeryerli's study, as in other studies of the topic, number of pitches or innings was always the chosen metric. Although pitch count and innings can be useful, I believe any threshold based on them can fluctuate greatly from pitcher to pitcher, depending on how many pitches/innings the pitcher has been conditioned to throw and whatever his natural born ability may allow him to endure. That being said, judging from MadBum's continued effectiveness, I believe that the Giants have done a good job up to this point of not pushing the young left-hander beyond his threshold (whatever that may be) and that they can continue to use him while watching VERY closely for signs of fatigue.

marcello
marcello

You really missed a crucial point of that article if you're trying to use Matt Cain to argue for more innings for Bumgarner. Go read it again until you understand it fully. And again, no one talked about setting hard limits.

giantsrainman
giantsrainman

Actually Marcello I think these two positions from Maddux and Ryan do indeed argue my point. “If you set limits,” said Maddux, “you lower people’s ceilings.” Ryan wants no part of any pitching program with the word “Rules” in it. As does the entire "Jaba rules" discussion. Finally, your argument is indeed a strawman. Are you really saying that the fact that Bumgarner in his age 19 season pitched 17.1 fewer innings then the 158.2 innings Cain pitched in his age 19 season in 2004 results in reasonable concern about asking Bumgarner to stretch his age 20 season mileage to the 192 innings pitched level that Cain reached in 2005? You do realized I hope that Madison Bumgarner has actually pitched more combined innings prior to his age 20 season then Matt Cain did at 283 vs 178.

His Thrillness
His Thrillness

If you watch MadBum pitch even though he throws from a low 3/4 slot his elbow still gets above his shoulder every time and he exhibits none of the other mechanical signs that pitchers who wind up needing TJ surgery typically do (inverted W, long arm over the top etc.). Not to mention that he's a big kid, with a good sized frame so I say let him pitch and put Zito's butt on the bench.....in Fresno, sunk costs are already sunk admit you made a mistake and move on. Also, because MadBum has done such a great job throwing strikes his pitch counts have remained relatively low for someone who's thrown as many innings as he has.

victor frankenstein
victor frankenstein

We're all on pins and needles with this one. OK, may7be it's just me, and maybe only for the next 45 seconds. THE FUTURE v. THE NOW The further effective services of the Angry Hobo vs. the immediate need for a solid innings eating starting rotation, aggravated by the once again failings of the Wannabe Ace $126, 000, 000 Man. If I'm concerned about the future and pragmatically considering the actual possibilities of October baseball at AT & T I'm shutting him down after six and bringing in CasiRoTaFFeLopez for one, maybe two innings. Our offense is warm/cold/cold/warm...c'mon, do we really expect to get by Philly AND the Yanks? (On that note...remember Andy Pettite? I saw the Yanks' stats last night. Stunning.) Shout out to the MCC representatives. Same ol' same ol' with GRM - he has an opinion of his own and the snark flies back an' forth an' back an' forth..."your (collective) biased hate will blind you." Well, at least you all are consistent.

obsessivegiantscompu
obsessivegiantscompu

Also, I have not had time to read through the entire Keri article, but skimming, I'm surprised that the article did not mention Leo Mazzone, the Braves former pitching guru, he was the one who was talking about developing arms through using them more, not less, for a long time. Long toss, I believe, was part of his routine, and he had all his pitchers throwing a lot more than other teams were, he went the opposite direction, based on the teachings a long-time pitcher passed on to him.

obsessivegiantscompu
obsessivegiantscompu

Relio, Lincecum used to long toss during the season from foul pole to foul pole, apparently stopped at some point, but is reportedly starting it up again. I would note that we don't know how much strength Bumgarner has in his arm. He said that he wore out his arm last season by throwing a lot in between starts, and blamed that for his lowered velocity (which we now realize was related to his mechanics). He said he would not throw as much this season. So we know how many IP he had, but we really don't know how many pitches he actually threw in previous seasons because he threw so much that he felt that perhaps that tired him out. As far as we know now, he might not have reached the capacity that he built up in previous seasons. His 95 MPH reached and increased strength as the game went on suggest that he not only has not reached his capacity yet but is still going strong. I'm totally OK with the Giants monitoring him and going game by game.

marcello
marcello

Yeah, I read that article too. It doesn't argue to your point, which was: There is just no way I believe the three starts (about 20 innings and 300 pitches) Bumgarner has left in his regular season represent a threat to his long term health or effectiveness. And my example was not a strawman, it's very representative of the situation. The point is, Bumgarner has never pitched this many innings and therefore never strengthened his arm to this point. How many additional innings is too much? 10, 50, 100? We, and the Rangers, don't know the answer to that question. So, the intelligent strategy is to be cautious (which doesn't mean don't let him pitch). Instead of always trying to pick a losing fight, maybe you should pay attention to the points being made.

poet44
poet44

In fact, the more I think about it, the more a case could be made that tonight's first game with the Dodgers is the most important of the next three weeks. I've already said that I would skip Zito tonight -- give the Padres credit for recognizing that there was a deep hole in their rotation and sitting down two of the five they'd gone with all year (Correia and Leblanc) just a few weeks ago -- but Bochy looks like he's going to stick with Barry until the end. If that's true, he just has to go seven innings tonight -- not necessarily win, but pitch well into the seventh: another early meltdown and the Gs are screwed.

PaapFly.com
PaapFly.com

Kid looks fine based on his velocity and his ability to continue to control the strike zone... but most importantly, they have no other choice. You could consider skipping him once or twice but then you're going with Zito 25% of the time, and he's been awful

giantsrainman
giantsrainman

Classic Marcello, as usual. Inventing a strawman to attack because he can not make an argument without one. Here is the point of view I subscribe to. http://jonahkeri.com/2010/09/13/pitching-injuries... This is how the Giants should treat Bumgarner and for that matter all the pitchers in their organization.

poet44
poet44

Instead of worrying about Bumgarner getting three more starts, I'd worry about Zito pitching tomorrow; with the luxury of three off days for the rest of the season (well, two now), they could almost go to a four-man rotation and start Cain tomorrow on four full days of rest. I know Bochy is loyal to veterans, but to me, it's starting to look like Barry isn't going to figure it out this season . . . I hope I'm wrong.

yogiberra
yogiberra

If he keeps pitching the way he has, he's liable to stunt his growth! (All his brothers are 6'10")....

marcello
marcello

As you said Chris, they basically have no choice. Hopefully the offense can put up some early runs for him and maybe they can get him out a little earlier in the last few starts. Classic GRM, as usual. "I refuse to believe my car can't drive another 30 miles even though this is the farthest I've ever driven it without filling up."

GreenApples
GreenApples

Bumgarner seems to be improving with the extra innings. I'd be curious to see the inning count by year (from being drafted? or by age?) of all the GIants pitchers. Also I didn't pay much attention to the 9/11 start but I noticed some pitch f/x fastablls numbers at 94/95. I wonder if you could make a graph like this: "http://www.baycityball.com/2010/04/06/lincecums-fastball-by-inning/" to see how bumgarner does throughout each game. I'd be more worried about bumgarner if it seemed that he was getting unusually tired towards the end his games.

Merkled
Merkled

3 starts is fine and I really dont see the Giants starting him in the playoffs anyway. Would you trust him completely in a playoff environment with very little MLB experience? I say he pitches a solid 3 starts and he goes to the pen in the playoffs in case he is needed for long relief or left handed help. If they are really concerned, they can use an off day to skip one of his starts right? The problem is that some of the other guys could use some time off too I bet.

relio
relio

He's been cruising the last few starts. I'd be more worried if he had more stress innings, or if he were more of a high effort guy. He does throw across his body, but his control and the fact his fastball has been gaining velocity keep me from being concerned. I found this article to be interesting. I wish I had done more long tossing... http://jonahkeri.com/2010/09/13/pitching-injuries... I wonder if the other Giants' pitchers besides Zito train that way. I remember hearing that Brian Wilson and Zito play long toss over a canyon during the off season.

Chris Quick
Chris Quick

Relax, GRM, I'm just spit-ballin' here. It's not just the 3+ extra starts from here on out, it's the entire season that concerns me. And, because you seem to think otherwise, I never said the Giants shouldn't pitch him. I just hope they are careful about it.

giantsrainman
giantsrainman

There is just no way I believe the three starts (about 20 innings and 300 pitches) Bumgarner has left in his regular season represent a threat to his long term health or effectiveness. Frankly, to even consider doing anything other then pitching him would be the height of stupidity.