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Chris
Chris

Hi GRM, >> Chris, have you been editing this? I could of swarn the first time I looked at this you had 50 wins as replacement level and now it is 48.5? This is making me think that my initial recollection that you initially had 2 Wins rather then 2.25 Wins as the difference between an average player and a replacement player with both having 100% playing time was correct. Have you adjusted both of these? Nope. You're just going crazy. Kidding! When I first posted the WAR projection I was using +2 wins for the NL as replacement and 50 wins as my baseline for the team. After some thought I decided to change both. I went to 2.25 wins for replacement to keep some consistency with last year's post -- I keep going back and forth on this. Replacement level in the NL is lower than the AL, and +2 wins seems a pretty good start, but most (FG included) as using 2.25 wins for replacement. I decided to buckle on that one. Same with the baseline, I'm a little more comfortable with using .300% winning percentage for the baseline which works out to 47-48 wins. If you want to scale back the projections slightly because of pitching hitting, I won't stop you, but I'm not too concerned about it. Pitchers accounted for slightly under 6% of the Giants total PAs last season. True, pitchers are bad hitters and you can find extra "hidden" value in a guy like Carlos Zambrano because of how well he hits, but the impact of most pitcher hitting (and defense) seem minimal to me. I see that FG tabbed the Giants pitchers, as a group, at -3 wins last season. I'm comfortable if you want to knock 1-2 wins or so off the total of my projection to account for pitchers and bench players hitting. Thanks for posting! I'll be tinkering with the projection again before Opening Day to reflect any roster changes. I'd also like to add more ZiPS into the hitting numbers. So, stay tuned. RE: The CHONE standings, we probably disagree in playing time. That's one area where the difference in wins could be coming from.

giantsrainman
giantsrainman

Chris, have you been editing this? I could of swarn the first time I looked at this you had 50 wins as replacement level and now it is 48.5? This is making me think that my initial recollection that you initially had 2 Wins rather then 2.25 Wins as the difference between an average player and a replacement player with both having 100% playing time was correct. Have you adjusted both of these? This still leaves me with the question of just how you are accounting for the negative WAR of NL pitchers hitting?

giantsrainman
giantsrainman

On second thought I see that you are now using the same 2.25 Win difference between an average position player and a replacement positon player with 100% playing time that Fangraphs does. Thus I must ask why your assumption for how many wins an NL replacement team will get (50) is higher then the 48 Fangraphs assumes? Seems to me that if you substract these 2 wins and 4 wins for the offense of the pitchers you get to 78 wins which is damn close to the 76 Wins Chone projects directly. http://www.baseballprojection.com/2010/standings2...

giantsrainman
giantsrainman

Chris, As usual well thought out and presented. Putting aside my personal disagreement with trusting Chone (or any projection system) as the foundation, I have a comment and a question. My comment is that while you and Fangraphs use different assumptions to get your numbers for position players they do end up being the same at the team level. You assume that a NL team made up entirely of replacement level players will win 50 games and that the difference across 100% playing time between an average NL position player and a replacement level player is 2 wins. Fangraphs assumes that a replacement level NL team will win 48 games and that the difference across 100% playing time between an average NL position player and a replacement level player is 2.25 wins. Since there are eight position player positons multiplying this .25 difference across these eight positons gives you the 2 win difference and thus both you and Fangraphs balance at the team level. This does however tell us that you value an average NL player with 100% playing time .25 WAR less then Fangraphs does. My question is: How do you account for the negative WAR NL pitchers produce as hitters? For example, last year according to Fangraphs Giants pitchers combined to hit for -3.8 WAR. http://www.fangraphs.com/winss.aspx?team=Giants&a...

Chris
Chris

Talking out loud here. The other problem I had with these projections was Freddy Sanchez's PT assessment. I just have no idea what to set his PT at. Right now he's at 525 PA's but I can't tell if that's optimistic or pessimistic.

Chris
Chris

Thanks Marcello. I think if you wanted to be pessimistic, I would take the under on a few of these projections mostly: * Nate's +2 wins - I'm just not sure he's a better than league average hitter. Not seeing it yet. * Bowker is adding +1 win by backing up in RF/LF -- it sounds like he might not have a place on the roster to start the year. He still has an option, right? * I did not project Velez. The more PT the Giants give him, the worst our projections should look. * Renteria's 1.4 WAR looks a little rosy to me, too. I think we're just as likely to win 78 games as we are 88 games next year. And, if anyone in the rotation (or Sandoval) skips a beat, things are going to be bad. Real bad.

marcello
marcello

Good stuff as usual. Honestly, I love that J. Sanchez projection, that's close to what Cain's put up the last 4 years and you have to love Sanchez's comps. Even if they don't truly mean that much, they do show what a guy with his skill set can become. Honestly, 83-84 seems a little high to me. I'm thinking more like 80, which is probably splitting hairs. It's also probably irrational pessimism. I've got a gentleman's bet going with my dad on this. He thinks this team is a 90 win team (88 wins last year + DeRosa, Huff, Sanchez) and I think it's an 80 win team. Knowing my luck, he's going to be "right" and the Giants will somehow still miss the playoffs.

MarkOC
MarkOC

180 IP for Sanchez. I know it's "stretching him out" but WTF, I have to assume SOMEONE on the team will actually IMPROVE!

MarkOC
MarkOC

I predict JSanchez will put up more IP and come out as a 3 WAR pitcher. Tim may actually do better than projected--he's a unique athlete and I wouldn't put it past him. If we can get Posey some playing time that should help things, too. Can we repeat our 88 wins? Maybe, but that seems like a ceiling to me. I'm thinking, at best, +2 more than your projections. Otherwise, it's hard to argue with much of what you said. If we can get Bowker and Schierholtz and Ishikawa out there more then maybe their "secret sauce upside" will kick in and we'll get a lot better. Otherwise, the old stiffs--and Bochy's fondness for them--really worry me.

Chris
Chris

I'll also note that I might tweak the offensive numbers when ZiPS releases it's final build but things should stay largely the same. hairball, Check out Sanchez's comps by ZiPS -- Randy Johnson is among them. His ability to strike guys out is amazing. Even if his control stays in the area of 4 walks per 9, he's still going to be an above-average pitcher.

hairball
hairball

The more I think about Sanchez, the more I convince myself that he really could be a superstar in the making. He's still young, and he's got essentially one weakness. If he can make any kind of headway on his control, then he'll be one of the best pitchers of this era, and merit the comparisons that have already been made about him.

Giant among Angels
Giant among Angels

Thanks. Seems about right. Though it is scary that if a SP goes down early with injury, then we are just a high 70's win team. These look much more realistic than the CHONE team win projections.

Chris
Chris

Mark, How many more innings would you project for Sanchez? In the last two seasons he's pitched 158 and 163.1 innings. I think I would give him an absolute upside of 180 innings? He's hard to project in that sense.

Chris
Chris

Try it now, I set it to public view.