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luvinthislife
luvinthislife

Jack Clark has to be on any list of bad Giants defenders. He started out in the low minors as a third baseman, and anybody sitting in the stands in the vicinity of first base had to be alert anytime he fielded a ball. He truly had no idea where his throws were going. It was hilarious! Of course, he could absolutely rake at the plate, so they converted him to the outfield. Fans at every MLB park should have thanked them for that move, as it helped ensure their safety.

Chris
Chris

Yeah, true. After his first season I was pulling my hair out at times. He tied the NL for passed balls in 2007. He was better last year, though. Matheny looked solid when he was here, good throwing arm, good ability to frame pitches, etc. Manwaring was solid, too. Before Matheny won the Gold Glove, Manwaring was the last Giants catch to bring home the gold. edit: Also, I think I'd knock off Shawon on your list in favor of Omar. By the time he came to the Giants, he wasn't much of a SS anymore. He started 78 games at SS in 1996. He was more of a PH/OF/1B player when he came back in 2001-2002. Omar was still a whiz during his years with the Giants. Probably the best ever defensive Giants SS.

MrLomez
MrLomez

Yeah, you're probably right. I guess my thinking with Molina has to do with his "pitcher-handler" reputation. I've also never seen someone frame a pitch quite like Molina. He catches more balls in the heal and the very nose of his glove more than any guy I can remember. But that's sooo subjective. Catcher is easily the hardest position to evaluate.

Chris
Chris

@MrLomez I like your list but I think I'd replace Molina with Matheny or Manwaring. Both are much better defenders in my opinion. Molina was better last year, but he seems to have really bad range at times. Especially when he was to go get a ball that's up in the zone.

MrLomez
MrLomez

Darren Lewis' streak of 938 chances without an error deserves some recognition. That's just absurd. Just because I'm bored. All-time Giants defensive team (note the obvious skew toward recent players): C - Molina (stud) 1B - Snow (those numbers above can't be right. Snow was a magician) 2B - Frank Frisch (supposedly was a beast,and I can't think of anyone else) 3B - Matty Williams (pure nostalgia, gets the nod over Feliz) SS - Shawon Dunston (what a fucking cannon!) LF - Barry Lamar Bonds (noodle arm, but horribly underrated) CF - Mays RF - Winn (no one plays their park better than Winn plays The Phone) P - Fat Freddy Fitzsimmons (see note on Frisch)

Chris
Chris

@Kenshin Good point, if we added positional adjustments to our players, Omar would come out ahead because he's competing against a much more athletic player group than guys like Randy Winn and Pedro were competing against. It's pretty amazing that even with his total collapse on offense, his defense still makes him a better than replacement level player.

kenshin
kenshin

I know this was not the thrust of your post, Chris, but if you adjust for position, Omar pretty clearly had the best defensive season.

daveinexile
daveinexile

Mark I will back you up on Thompson. I barely remember Titio Fuentes so I don't count my memories of how good he was as reliable but I would say Robby was the best defensive second base man the Giants have had since Fuentes. The next guy on the list is not even close. I will not even get started on Williams. He is tied with Willie Mac for my favorite all time Giant and I'm way too much fan to be allowed to comment much on him. Needless to say I think Mueller & Feliz had nothing on him defensively. OCG & Mark thanks for the confirmation on Maddox. The memory can be funny thing after couple decades. I remember Willie Montnez be horrible at first. If it was not between his belt and his shoulders forget it. I think the Montenez think sums up nicely why I am happy to see a UZR stat, and Tango Tigers work, so readily available.

gigantor
gigantor

Nice post. Deivi Cruz? Wow, I just remember bounding balls skipping past his range. Then again, I recall the penultimate game of 2004, the horrific clinching loss vs. the Dodgers. Cruz made a sweet play on Beltre to end the 8th inning and preserve the 3-0 lead. And then Felipe replaced him for the 9th with Cody Ransom, who proceeded to commit the worst E6 in Giants history. As for great Giants defenders: We've had the privilege of seeing some beautiful outfield defense, from D-Lew to Bonds to D. Hamilton to Winn (honorable mentions to Calvin Murray, E. Burks and even a washed-up Finley). OF defense may be an SF Giants tradition extending back to Mays, who was supposed to be the greatest of them all. Reminds me of a quick story: Mays once was breaking in a new glove in BP and dropped a couple fly balls. He proceeded to shred the glove into pieces. When asked if maybe it wasn't the glove's fault, he hissed, "I don't drop fly balls."

MarkOC
MarkOC

The Jeffrey "Hac-man" Leonard was a fine LF. Under-appreciated on some wretched teams. Robby Thompson was an excellent fielder in my (admittedly biased) memory. Mike Matheny was a joy to watch behind the plate--superb footwork, always balanced, great hands. Matt Williams had the same combo at 3B. OF defense is indeed a Giants tradition. I remember in HS watching the Gary Matthews Sr.--Gary Maddox--Bobby Bonds trio. Those guys nailed everything. I did see Dave Kingman play LF. Adam Dunn channels Dave Kingman.

Chris
Chris

@Paulie I would have payed good money to watch Kingman play third. One of the weirdest baseball players ever. Had loads of talent. Joe Poz has a fabulous recent article on him. Check it out if you haven't already seen it, it's a good read. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/joe... @Gigantor Yeah, I was pretty surprised too. I never thought of Cruz as anything other than a below-average defender.

Paulie R.
Paulie R.

Oh, and I wasn't alive back then or anything, but apparently when the Giants tried Dave Kingman at third base one year, it was a disaster of epic proportions.

Paulie R.
Paulie R.

Favorite Defender: Maybe it's cliche, but I gotta go with J.T. Some of his acrobatics at first base were simply jaw-dropping. Shinjo was also fun to watch. Would have been nice if he could hit, though. Most Hated: Russ Davis was maybe the worst third baseman I've ever seen. Glenallen Hill was bad, but in a comical way, so you kind of had to like him even when the routine fly balls were dropping like a meteor shower.

obsessivegiantscompu
obsessivegiantscompu

Loved Shinjo, I can still see that play where the RF muffed the ball in the alley, Shinjo grabs it, spins around and tosses it no-look: a strike to home. I still think he was mis-used by Dusty. Yeah, LeMaster was pretty good with the glove, horrible with the bat. For bad, how about Candy Maldonado? He was pretty bad, cost us a chance for the World Series with that sliding catch attempt. Maddog Bill Madlock was a bit stiff at 2B but a great hitter. But I like your choice of Spiderman Hill.

daveinexile
daveinexile

The Good since 1990: I definitely can't fault Clayton or Lewis though. I think I'll go with Cruz's regular season in RF. He made plays out there that reminded me of Gary Maddox roaming the 'Stick. The old quote of 2/3rd of the planet is covered by water and the rest by Maddox seemed less absurd then it sounds. When Cruz was not wore out from lack of rest he was phenomenal. The Bad. Alfonzo at third. As a Giant he just always seemed to be in pain. And I rarely saw any of the smoothness that was there as a Met. The Ugly: Kent's first year or so here at second. No stats to back it up but he look borderline spasmodic out there – a lot. To his credit he never stopped hustling and trying and things did not remain that way.

Chris
Chris

Royce was a great defender, I think it's why he stuck around for so long. It sure wasn't because of his bat. Russ Davis, who is that? I don't remember any Russ Davis. /blocks memories Lewis is a good choice, but I don't remember him as much because I was younger. I think David Bell was an underrated defender. Kinda gritty, but had great hands. I remember him making quite a few nice stops.

hasan
hasan

My heart would always skip a beat anytime a ball was hit to the left when Roose was over at third - luckily that didn't last long. The guy who I used to love watching pick it was Royce. Don't have stats to back it up, but my memories of him were of a smooth-fielding short who could make some dazzling plays, peppered with some youthful indiscretions. Billy Mueller also brought some glove at third, maximizing his abilities even if he didn't have all the range and the arm. Also can't forget about Darren Lewis, who could flat out fly early on.

Chris
Chris

I'll start this one because it's a fun topic to talk about. For the bad defenders, a lot of people will probably bring up Velez as a recent example. He's painful to watch at times. I always remember Glenallen Hill moving very stiffly in the outfield. Nothing he ever did seemed smooth, but he could crush a ball now and then. Jose Castillo was frustrating to watch last year. Marvin Benard? He's probably a popular pick with fans who've seen bad defenders in center field, I never hated him like most did. Good guys? The Shinjo period in SF was short lived, but I remember him being rangey and smooth in CF. Jose Cruz Jr. -- if you block out that one play -- seemed to play RF well, sporting a strong throwing arm. I never got to see LeMaster play, but he could supposedly pick it. Same with Kuiper, who was supposed to have been a whiz at second. Fred Lewis was fun to watch last year. His routes are debatable, but he usually gets the ball.