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daveinexile
daveinexile

I would like to forward a slightly different take on the middle reliever debate. The last couple seasons, or so, a contender trading for middle relief has happened a lot more often then trading for a starter. Given that the Giants are signing “good” bull pen help it not only costs the team lots of money ( as covered above ) but it costs the Giants the chance to find and trade such arms. Sure we might not be getting much more then “B” prospects back but such a move provides more organizational depth - and all the positives that brings. With 2 top of the rotation starters in the fold for awhile. A probable better then run of the mill bull pen arm ( I not ready to call Wilson elite) the Giants really have 2-3 starters roles up for grabs in the next couple seasons and a bunch of middle relief slots. Hopefully 1 guy ( if are lucky 2) evolve out of the middle relief scrum into some thing very good. By doing middle relief this way the Giants could end up with a couple more Jack Tashner types. Serviceable under team control and cheep. This a very tradable commodity to pick up pieces the minor league production line is lacking at acurrent time. Say an upper minors third baseman candidate, may be similar middle infield guy . Yes none of these guys would be “A” prospect types. But it would put the Giants on the other side of the vicious signing vets just to fill holes cycle. It is also a way to keep finding and developing over looked arms yet avoid being as drastically unbalanced as the Giants minor league production as been the last few years.

Chris
Chris

I'll tackle a few things in your post. The Giants are not looking for a closer, they are looking for a good reliever. So you relax, they aren’t spending $8-10M on a reliever. Which I agree with you is not the best thing to do. The Giants probably aren't going to sign a closer but they are still going to have to pay a Juan Cruz-type reliever $4-6M per year. The going rate for good relievers a couple of years ago seemed to be around 3/12, I would say it's probably going to be closer to 3/16 or 4/20 now. We'll have to wait and see. Plus, that’s $10M when both seem in pretty good shape, they seem to have a handle on what it takes to be a good pitcher (or very good in Lincecum’s case). Paying Maddux $10M for a season isn't the worst thing that can happen, it's a one time commitment but, the fact is, that the Giants are sorely lacking depth at the back of their rotation. As for savvy, that's mostly tongue-in-cheek stuff. My point about Yabu is that he didn’t really have that great a year in 2008 looking at his FIP, so presenting him as a successful snagging of a cheap reliever is incorrect, he if anything took away valuable experience from one of our prospects. At minimum, keep Hinshaw and Romo down in the minors longer. Yes, Yabu's underlying peripherals suggest he might have a hard time duplicating his 2008 (mostly rooted in his 2% HR/FB rate, if that regresses he's going to look a lot different) but my point is that he gave the Giants good relief for nothing. His chances of repeating his performance in the future might be in question but it doesn't change what he actually gave the Giants in '08. It's not playing the lottery, it's about not overpaying for talent that you can acquire for cheaply or even almost for free. And I guess I should be clearer: I have no idea whether Nelson was available. Are you saying that he was available? Cruz was DFA'd at the beginning of this year, no team wanted him, so he went back to the Rangers. Everyone had a shot on Cruz but nobody took the chance. I like Kila Ka’aihue and would be happy to see the Giants acquire him. Will it happen? Who knows, I try to not rosterbate too much on this site. I will say that I don't think you can assume that Kila is available now because Jacobs is on the team.

obsessivegiantscompu
obsessivegiantscompu

Now I remember why I came by. Since the Royals picked up Jacobs and have Eric Hosmer waiting in the wings, then they don't need Kila Ka'aihue. Perhaps they might be willing to give him up cheap, he's a huge power hitter, plays 1B, hits lefty, so he's like a Travis Ishikawa, only he knows how to hit, his strikeout rate is OK to good, and he walks more than he strikes out, even better. His defense is lacking, however, but if he can hit very well, perhaps we can have Snow work with him and upgrade his defense to tolerable (he's pretty bad from what I've read)

obsessivegiantscompu
obsessivegiantscompu

The Giants are not looking for a closer, they are looking for a good reliever. So you relax, they aren't spending $8-10M on a reliever. Which I agree with you is not the best thing to do. I'm OK with savvy. If you read my post, I don't think Lincecum and Cain need much more savvy than what our current roster of MLB vets can provide. Plus, that's $10M when both seem in pretty good shape, they seem to have a handle on what it takes to be a good pitcher (or very good in Lincecum's case). Roberts, however, provides a source of information that our speedsters cannot get, the knowledge that Maury Wills, one of the greatest basestealers in all time, gave him. Speed is our future and our speedsters are frankly, not that successful in stealing bases at a high success rate. Roberts hopefully can pass that on, seed the future. My point about Yabu is that he didn't really have that great a year in 2008 looking at his FIP, so presenting him as a successful snagging of a cheap reliever is incorrect, he if anything took away valuable experience from one of our prospects. At minimum, keep Hinshaw and Romo down in the minors longer. You can pull in every wannabe reliever in existence for nothing but that does not mean any of them are going to do anything, which is my point about all those players in 2007. If you are OK with that, fine, but that's like hoping you win a lottery ticket, plus as we both noted, just because he does well in 2009 does not mean that he will do well in 2010, which is when we need him to do well, I'm hoping to be contenders that year. And I guess I should be clearer: I have no idea whether Nelson was available. Are you saying that he was available? I don't see why he was available, he should have had another option, but perhaps I counted wrong. You seem to be speaking as if he was available in a waiver deal or free agency, I was simply asking if that is true or not, as it didn't make sense looking at his career stats.

Chris
Chris

Nelson Cruz was controlled by the Rangers in 2007, was he really a free agent who signed back with the Rangers for 2008? He should not have been out of options, he should have had his third option in 2008, unless there is some rule governing the fact that he signed when he was only 18 but didn’t make it to the majors until he was 25. And every team passed on Cruz. Every team had a chance to pick him up and nobody did. At minimum the Rangers had enough sense to re-sign him. You missed the point re: relievers: You like to mention the ones that work, but what about the ones who don’t: Matt Kinney, Sunny Kim, Dan Giese, Scott Achison, Brian Boles, Ryan Meaux, Richardo Rincon; and that was just for 2007 season, and none of them were able to come through. Those guys weren't good, but they didn't cost anything. That's my point. As for Yabu having another year like he had in '08 Will he likely repeat his ‘08 season? Probably not, but the Giants get kudos for giving him a chance and he rewarded them nicely. See above. Maybe you missed that part when you read the OP. I don’t get the fixation over worrying about spending on a reliever and yet you are willing to spend $10M on a starting pitcher, albeit Greg Maddux. I’ve also read somewhere that he wouldn’t really be interested in coming to SF as that is too far from his Las Vegas home. I think Lincecum and Cain has enough help from Righetti and Gardner (and Tidrow) without needing to pay $10M to get vet savvy from Maddux. Vet savvy we paid for with Morris and it appeared to help Cain a bit. Now he and Lincecum can pass on what they know to Bumgarner and Alderson. The Giants need depth, I like Maddux, relax! It's easier to find league average relief than it is to find league average starting pitching, this was like 50% of the post. And I'm surprised to hear you turned off to the idea of "Maddux's savy" when I've read you post multiple times that the Giants should keep Dave Roberts because he might coach a few guys to swipe some bags while riding the bench. So you can flip through a dozen pitching possibles and hope that one of the jell-o stick to the wall, or you commit $2-3M per year to try to get a more reliable reliever. That's the rub. If the Giants are going with a big name FA reliever, they'll be spending much more than just $2-3M. Fuentes is probably going to cost near $8-10M per and K-Rod will get a lot of money. That's also not accounting for any lost draft picks. It just doesn't make sense for the Giants to pay big money on the market for relief help. They might not do it, but they could very well be aggressive on the market and that's what I'm worried about.

obsessivegiantscompu
obsessivegiantscompu

I was not so worried about the Jacobs and Blake rumors, Sabean could have signed those types of free agents (or traded for them) last year and didn't. And I didn't think he would, he made it clear that 2008 was a transition year when he had his Post Season Day 1 press conference and that he was looking long term. People need to stop having blinders about him and look at his body of work and not the owner-driven "Let's Win One with Bonds" mantra. He knows talent. Nelson Cruz was controlled by the Rangers in 2007, was he really a free agent who signed back with the Rangers for 2008? He should not have been out of options, he should have had his third option in 2008, unless there is some rule governing the fact that he signed when he was only 18 but didn't make it to the majors until he was 25. While 2009 is a transition year, the Giants think (I think rightly) that with a couple more pieces, they can be competitive. A reliable reliever would be key to that. So you can flip through a dozen pitching possibles and hope that one of the jell-o stick to the wall, or you commit $2-3M per year to try to get a more reliable reliever. You like to mention the ones that work, but what about the ones who don't: Matt Kinney, Sunny Kim, Dan Giese, Scott Achison, Brian Boles, Ryan Meaux, Richardo Rincon; and that was just for 2007 season, and none of them were able to come through. Yabu is noteworthy for his exception to the jell-o that falls to the ground, and he was an unrealistic success, because he not do that well his first time around in the majors with the A's, who is another team that could have used more reliable relief and yet they let him go. And his stats are not as good as they seem, his FIP is 4.06, which is not that good for a reliever, it is OK, not like the 3.57 ERA which is why you picked him. I am against this type of thinking because that is what many people told me after Nathan was traded away. "You can find relievers easily, they are fungible" "Sabermetrics studies show that they are not worth that much, they are not that valuable" Well, after years of trying to find relievers, I would have to say that that sabermetric bromide is not accurate at all. One higher priced reliever will not kill the team or the budget, I think worrying about it is not necessary. I like your 4 points though. I would have liked to have picked up Jorge Cantu last season, but we never know why a player isn't signed by the team. But I don't expect anything to happen there, I think the Giants are trying to leave spots open for our prospects to win, so unless we are able to get a true middle of lineup hitter - doubtful without trading one of the big 3, Lincecum, Cain, Bumgarner - I don't think there will be any substantial deal/signing, it would be another Jose Castillo type pick-up. I think Sabean won't do anything desperate, as that is the tone I take your comment to be. Sabean was also a lame duck two years ago and didn't do anything that I would call foolish. Then he got his two year extension. Plus, as an owner, I would probably make Sabean run deals by him before they can be done, i.e. get owner approval, to make sure something like that don't happen. I think the Giants already have some threshold where it has to be run by the owner anyhow. I don't get the fixation over worrying about spending on a reliever and yet you are willing to spend $10M on a starting pitcher, albeit Greg Maddux. I've also read somewhere that he wouldn't really be interested in coming to SF as that is too far from his Las Vegas home. I think Lincecum and Cain has enough help from Righetti and Gardner (and Tidrow) without needing to pay $10M to get vet savvy from Maddux. Vet savvy we paid for with Morris and it appeared to help Cain a bit. Now he and Lincecum can pass on what they know to Bumgarner and Alderson. Basically, for 1B, 3B, if you want offense, you will have to accept poorer defense, players who are good offensively and defensively are expensive and usually spoken for. I would rather go with whoever among our prospects - Sandoval, Ishikawa, Bowker, Frandsen, Velez, Burriss, Rohlinger - plus any free talent we can scrounge up, can win the position in spring training and go from there.

daveinexile
daveinexile

Chris: One bullet dodged! On Jacobs. I would be cool with Maddux or Moyer type signing. A guy that really knows the art and science of pitching so the young arms can learn from him. That route would also have the possible side effect softening the lose of a veteran catcher ( Molina trade?) if that should happen. I would like it to be either that route a guy that really might put it together again but maybe health or case wiring issues have lowered his stature in the last couple years. Take flier with up side or a known team enabler not an in between or long term move please.

Chris
Chris

/keeps posting in own thread Looks like the Jacobs deal is, well, a done deal: http://kansascity.royals.mlb.com/news/article.jsp... <cite>The Royals acquired power-hitting first baseman Mike Jacobs from the Florida Marlins on Thursday for right-handed reliever Leo Nunez. Jacobs, who turned 28 on Thursday, should answer the Royals' need for a proven power hitter. He had career highs of 32 home runs and 93 RBIs for the Marlins last season. A left-handed hitter, he batted .247 and had an on-base percentage of .299. </cite> Yay.

Chris
Chris

And as corny and as sports writer-ish as it is, imagine how cool it would be to have Tim Lincecum or Matt Cain pick Greg Maddux's brain for pitching advice? Pretty cool if you ask me.

Chris
Chris

@Dave I'm hoping Agent Ned beats Sabes to the punch and signs Blake. I know from reading a few articles it looks like LA has had preliminary talks with Blake. It just feels like a perfect Sabean move to sign Blake. Jacobs worried me too but recent news makes it sound like he's on the verge of getting traded to the Kansas City Royals. I definitely agree with adding another started to pad out the rotation depth. I'm a Greg Maddux fan, he would probably cost $10M for a season but he would give you league average numbers and you could always do the yearly trade with him. But you're right, the Giants could use some rotation depth.

daveinexile
daveinexile

With Blake having recent experience, of the none Hindenburg goes to Lakehurst type, at 3rd, 1st & RF I am not so worried about a Blake signing. In this market he is the second best 1st baseman available. The best third baseman and among the best RF candidates. Plus he could be a great bench guy for a contender. The amount and type of teams that should of interest in him should shrink our odds by an large amount. I worry more about some goofy idea to trade for Jacobs, Blalock or 4 year comment to the next Julian Tavarez at age 30. So I fully back your bull pen position. I know that’s probably the kiss of death. For the infield I am of the mind go cheapish back up pain sponge guy that can cover more then 1 spot. Say Counsell, Izturis, Cora etc. Add to that list Branyan to absorb time at third if he hit’s the open market. I notice Loretta is a Type B free agent so not as hot on him. One thing that is sort not on your list, though it might fit under #4 Find cheap talent, Is sign a bottom of the rotation arm for 1 -2 year deal. But this should be a player trying to reestablish himself. Probably a righty. The player get a decent division to show their stuff in the Giants could get 150+ I.P of decent pitching and if things are real good flip him for a couple good farm hands mid season. It's not like the Giants have any starters in the upper farm to block and the addition time will let the next wave of starters get closer to the show.