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daveinexile
daveinexile

OCG sorry I missed your second post. I consider Rowan a redundant vet when looking at the Giants roster prior to last November. The leadership/vet role was already bring filled by Winn. Sure Rowan is younger and has had more experience batting in the hart of the order. Winn more durable and better glove work. But neither player is enough of a difference marker to be a star. Rowan has not been a bad player just not what is needed at this time. And we have 4 year left of him to decline. With Bowker I was talking towards the 13 inf’s on the 40 man roster point. I believe he , might be rule V eligible this off season. Thus he was mentioned in terms of keeping him on the 40 man.. Yes he fizzled out this season but he showed enough power he might catch some one else’s interest if left off the 40 man. And given the Giants current position can they really afford to risk that? Similar point with Ochoa. If kept on the 25 man we control his baseball fate this off season. And someonethat is not butcher has to play SS on Burriss’s off days.Yes he is the Embodiment of Replacement Level to Play on the ‘09 giants inf. But then someone has to be and if the team is not committed to 2 or more seasons to such a player that is a good thing. As for Burris I am not slamming him. Just constructing the rooster so he has to play every day in his first full season would be very stupid. And its setting him up to fail. And there are plenty of way Sabean can get into trouble if he starts looking for SS help outside the organization. Final note on Pablo and Vlad. I was just using Vlad as a prototypical bad ball hitter most people know. I was going to say Manny Sanguillen then I realized there was not a fan graph for him and his last season was in 1980 so people might not get the reference.

Chris
Chris

I just hope Denker is on next years team. /closet Denker fan. And will naming Burriss the starting shortstop reaaaallly let Sabes focus on "finding a 1B"? He's been focusing since 2004 and we haven't had a league average one since then. JT Snow's fluketacular '04 was the last time the Giants hit L.A. at 1B, one of the easier positions to fill (theoretically, the Giants haven't turned that theory into practice).

Chris
Chris

@OGC Correction: Ortmeier was never named the starting 1B, they just said that he would get a lot of time there and in the OF in 2008. Then he hit so poorly that they probably would have sent him down if he didn’t get injured, if I remember his season right. Really? Because all I heard after Ort's flukey 100-something AB's at the tail end of '07 was how he was going to be the 1B in '08. The dog and pony show that the team put on with him and Frandsen was pretty funny. FACES OF THE FRANCHISE! Or not.

Chris
Chris

@Delorean Oh, you and your crazy-assed theories! Tell me the one about global warming again!

obsessivegiantscompulsive
obsessivegiantscompulsive

Correction: Ortmeier was never named the starting 1B, they just said that he would get a lot of time there and in the OF in 2008. Then he hit so poorly that they probably would have sent him down if he didn't get injured, if I remember his season right. Burriss, on the other hand, has been named the starting SS for 2009. This will reportedly allow Sabean to focus on 1B and 3B for next season, while they chose among several candidates at 2B. I think they believe that Frandsen, if he can return to his past performance, would be fine starting at 2B. I believe that is why they left 3B open last off-season, they truly believed that Frandsen would win a spot in the starting lineup, at 2B if Durham continued to suck like he did in 2008, and at 3B if not. Who knew his tendon would snap like that. From Frandsen's performances previously, I agree that the Frandsen of old would be capable of holding 2B as a starter. He hit well everywhere he went, and I think he will be fine for the Giants at 2B, at least until Nick Noonan is ready to take over in 3-4 years. He just needs to get his hitting touch back after a year away from competitive baseball. The Giants have not backed off of statements about young position players previously, they gave those players enough rope to hang themselves, and unfortunately, they did, Niekro, Ellison, Linden, they were all given plenty of chances to keep the prominent spot they were given and they all blew their chances. And if you are going to talk about balls, how about the balls to place Cain in the rotation and keep him there even though he really sucked those first two months? Homer Bailey was sent down and has been bouncing up and down since then. Anthony Reyes has as well. Or the balls to promote Lincecum to the majors after so few games in the minors? Or the balls to promote Accardo then Sanchez through the farm system fast once they identified them as risers? Or the balls to field essentially a pitching staff with solely farm hands, except for Zito and Yabu? They released Kline in spring training even though they owed him money for his contract, if you'll recall. And they had the balls to keep Lewis in LF even when Roberts returned, and they basically made that clear early on, as Roberts answered very early in his rehab that he understands that Lewis is in LF now and that he's a bench player. And the balls to bring Sandoval up, even though the highest he's ever been was AA, and briefly this season. I think the Giants have shown a lot of balls, if you look hard enough.

daveinexile
daveinexile

“How much playing time do you all think Gillaspie will get?” - Wax pack Considering they way things usually work with this club I think him and Rohlinger are the designated coffee and doughnut fetches. I want under 5 P.A.s in the pool please. OCG- I get the no harm no foul stance. But what is the point in this case? It doesn’t exactly insire fans and it not like the Giants don’t have enough young players that may not be/may never be ready to look at. It leaves us with the call up being used as a negotiating tactic or a bunch or motives that really don’t bode well for the team as a whole.

waxpack
waxpack

How much playing time do you all think Gillaspie will get?

daveinexile
daveinexile

I agree on the Ochoa take. I think Burriss will probably be a good SS , by traditional measures, I also think expecting him to play 130+ games next season at a decent level of productivity in the majors is just begging for trouble. But he Giants will need someone that can play back up SS and a cheap glove man will do. I mean what are the other options? If the team goes established player Lugo, Khalil Green ( presuming the Pad’s go into a slash payroll mode), Furcul ( bad back ), Everett or Eckstein? None of these seem an up grade worth the cost of acquiring. How Sabean staffs SS this off season will be real interesting to me.

Chris
Chris

@Dave Vlad is probably THE example of a guy that lives off of the ability to make ridiculous contact in and out of the zone. Over the last four years Vlad has swung at pitches outside of the zone: 32.22%, 40.28%, 45.26%, 46.03% He's made contact with pitches outside of the zone: 66.45%, 68.15%, 71.27%, 70.23% Shows how ridiculous Pablo's contact % is on pitches outside of the zone. His sample is very small, so consider that he's probably not an 80%+ contact hitter on pitches outside of the zone. And for all his free-swinging-ways, Vlad has a career BB% of 9.1, slightly above the league average of 8%. He hit double-digit BB%'s in 2002, 2003, 2005, and 2007. He has some plate discipline but tremendous coverage. Right now Pablo's BB% is 4.9, nearly 3 points under league average. Still, SSS applies and we need more data. On Ochoa, the Giants might hang on to him in some manner. Burriss has been named the starter, but if the Giants have the balls to go through with that plan is another question (ie: Ort is the new 1B! Ort who!?). I don't see Ochoa as more than anything other than a gloveman.

obsessivegiantscompu
obsessivegiantscompu

On Ochoa, I hope they keep him up as utilty MI, plus he could be a defensive switch near the end of the game when bringing in a reliever.

delorean
delorean

@ waxpack: I think he'll get negative playing time. I've theorized elsewhere that this was all a way to get Conor a major-league contract w/o giving him a major-league contract when he signed. No one's proven me wrong yet. ^_^

obsessivegiantscompu
obsessivegiantscompu

Waxpack, the way they make it sound, they are not even sure if he will make it into any game. I assume, however, that Lansford will be spending a lot of extra time with Gillaspie to assess how well he is hitting and what he needs to do to move forward.

obsessivegiantscompu
obsessivegiantscompu

Dave, what redundant and declining Vet was signed this past winter? I think that Sabean's actions since Bonds was officially let go shows that it was Giants ownership that drove the moves made by Sabean where such vets were acquired. He kept spots open for prospects except for his acquisition of Rowand, which has been a good acquisition thus far, better than what we could have expected our prospects to have done, plus I think he has been a good addition for clubhouse leadership. In addition, he was able to get rid of Morris last season and Durham this season. Regarding the OF for 2009, who cares about Bowker and, besides, Roberts leaving has no effect on the starting lineup, it is Winn who needs to be traded, period, in order to open up RF for Schierholtz. Bowker can find time backing up the OF and 1B, plus perhaps win 1B away from Ishikawa next spring. Sabean noted acquiring a corner infielder in a recent interview, but I have to assume he means 3B since we have so many internal options at 1B right now, but nothing really at 3B. I doubt they are going to give Gillaspie the job for next season, though anything is possible this season, he's here to help management figure out whether to get a short-term or long-term solution at 3B, I assume. I am not sure what the point about Rohlinger is. He has two more option years following this season, and could have a third if he qualifies under that 5-year rule I posted above. I'm not sure we control Ochoa for next season, as he signed with us as a 6th year minor league free agent and this is his second season with us, so he could be itching to leave if he doesn't see an opportunity here. Someone would have to check and confirm what happens with him. What is wrong with what Burriss has done in his short time as SS? He has shown good plate discipline both in the minors and in the majors, striking out very few times relatively, at a rate that better hitters achieve. His main problem is much like Juan Pierre, don't walk much nor hit for power. But supposedly he should be doing better than that and Carney Lansford is working with him on that. Not proven, but not worth going yipes over either. I won't compare Sandoval with Vlad, but he has hit well for 3 out of the past 4 seasons, and shown in the minors that he can avoid strikeouts well enough to be a good hitter. In addition, while he doesn't walk a ton, he's been roughly 5% walk rate over his career and that's tolerable if he can deliver a lot of power, particularly if he can do that from the catcher's position (not so good if he's manning 3B or particularly 1B). Furthermore, you got to remember that he's only 21 years old, and has been young for the leagues he's been playing in, so the rates he was showing reflects his inexperience, and that he could get better with more experience. Plus he appears to have grown leaps and bounds this season. Sure, small sample for how well he has hit in the majors thus far, but here's his MLE for the full season: SJ: .269/.326/.420/.746, 8 HR in 283AB, 35 AB/HR CO: .293/.324/.479/.803, 7 HR in 167AB, 24 AB/HR SF: .364/.381/.532/.913, 2 HR in 77 AB, 39 AB/HR Thus, while he's due for a regression to the mean, he won't have that great a fall. In addition, the MLE's don't take into account his age, which should boost his numbers up a bit more for his time in SJ and Conn.

obsessivegiantscompu
obsessivegiantscompu

Dang, lost my post, I'll redo later. Here are the rules on options (from Wikipedia): Options If a player is on the 40-man roster but not on the active major league roster, he is said to be on optional assignment—his organization may freely move him between the major league club and the minor league club. If a player is on the 40-man roster and not the active 25 man roster for any part of more than three seasons, he is out of options and may not be assigned to the minors without first clearing waivers. However, if a player has less than 5 years of professional experience, he may be optioned to the minors in a fourth season without being subject to waivers. If a major league player is ineligible for free agency and "has options" remaining, his team may option him to a minor league team without consequence. This is usually what is meant when players are "sent down" to the minors. Likewise, when a player on the 40-man roster is added to the active major league roster, he is "called up" to the majors. Thus, according to this, Gillaspie should have a fourth option. Now whether, he burned an option by being added this year is another question that I haven't seen answered. I think it would be stupid then to add a player to the 40 man in September if that costs him a full season, just for a month of active time, so I would hope that the rule is that he gets four options starting next season, meaning that he's controlled by the Giants up to his 25 year old season (2012) where he turns 26 mid-season, thus he has to prove he is MLB worthy by 2013 or risk being released. That seems to be more than enough time to figure out whether he's a keeper or not, plus you could keep him on the roster for 2013 while the staff figures out whether he's worth keeping or not. While this reduces flexibility with him in the future, I don't think that it's that onerous enough to make a big deal about it. If he hasn't made his case yet by 2013, he is a marginal prospect at best by that point, a Lance Niekro question mark, so what's the big deal then?

daveinexile
daveinexile

As for Gilliaspie that’s one of those “ What are your thinking?” type moves. So far no blood is spilled in measurable quantities so I shrug and hope this lets enough of his Inner Idiot out to avoid a 3+ year deal to an another redundant and declining Vet this winter. Figure Aurlia, Omar and McClain are naturals to be off the 40 man by Nov 20 ( the Rule V roster dead line). Rholinger should be protected for 1 more season so he can be shifted to minors. Move one of the Vet Outfielders ( I know beating a dead horse) Bowker fits in there. Tada a fit. I am reluctant to cast aside Ochoa just because the SS market is so very barren. That said if a better looking candidate can be rule 5 drafted out of some one else’s system then he gets Ochoa’s slot. The same might be said of a 3rd baseman. The only problem is that leave us with Burriss , Velez and maybe Frandsen to man SS. Yikes stripes! With Pablo dare we hope the team found a Vlad Guerrero type bat? Nah, that’s not possible.