More Crede Talk
Posted by Chris - 30/01/08 at 02:01 pmJoe Crede heading westward to the Giants is the new rumor that just-won’t-die.
From a White Sox Blog hosted on the Chicago Sun-Times:
Joe Crede: The whispers around the organization still seem to point to the idea that if the third baseman shows up to camp and the back looks strong he will be gone by the middle of Cactus League play. The top suitor remains San Francisco, who may even have a deal in place with the Sox, contingent on the back recovery. The big reason why? Aaron Rowand. While talking to Williams in his first free-agent discussion with the club this offseason, the second question out of Rowand’s mouth – right after “That’s all the years can you give me?’’ – was about the future of his good friend Crede. Don’t think for a second that Rowand isn’t in the ear of Giants’ brass, campaigning for Crede to come West and be locked up to a contract extension.
I’ve written a few times on this site about why I don’t want Crede but the closer we get to Spring Training the more steam this rumor seems to pick up. While I’m sure that Rowand is pushing for one of his old buddies to come to the Giants, I’ve also heard that Ron Schueler has also pushed for Joe Crede. Scheuler is currently a senior advisor of player personnel in the Giants FO but has previous ties to the White Sox. He was the White Sox GM from 1991-2000 before he was replaced by Kenny Williams.
It’s looking more like if Crede is even slightly healthy, the Giants will deal for him, thus ending my Morgan Ensberg dreams. My complaints with this scenario have been posted before but why would you lose Feliz and then replace him with another Feliz — Crede and Feliz are essentially the same player, great defense, weak offense — and not only that, but you’d have to lose some prospects in the process to acquire Crede. Other negatives include that Crede hasn’t been a specimen of health over the past couple of years and his agent is Scott Boras. Trading for Crede is essentially a expensive 1-year solution to third base. That might make sense for a 80-85 win team but the Giants are more of a 65-70 win team right now.
The Giants would also be foolish to try and extend Crede and I’m not sure that Boras would want to do that. Crede could rebuild his value with a decent or at least healthy year in San Francisco and then be shuffled back out to the market to get a multi-year deal worth more money.
Because Kenny Williams is a terrible GM and I’m not so sure that Brian has rediscovered his magic touch yet, the prospects of both of them hammering out a trade is mildly frightening. It’s similar to giving two blind people revolvers and putting them into a 6×6ft room and then telling them both to start firing. The winner is the one that walks out of the room alive. I’ve got a gut-feeling that Sabean might try to spin off Lowry or Sanchez to the White Sox in a Crede deal, which is a big overpay. I’m not high on Lowry but he’s got more value than Crede does right now. I’ve always been a big Sanchez supporter and I like his combination of stuff and velocity.
If I could concoct a dream scenario for this trade it would be the following:
Giants trade OF Dave Roberts to Chicago White Sox for 3B Joe Crede
The White Sox OF is full, but they could stop toying with the idea of playing Nick Swisher in CF. Dave Robert is a pretty bad fielding CF but the Cell might be kinder to his legs than the spacious Mays Field. Also, Roberts is the kind of player that the White Sox seem to have love affairs with. He’s speedy, bunty, and a grinder! Williams did trade Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik. This is also the same team that gave the corpse of Darin Erstad 310 AB’s last year.
This would be ideal for the Giants because it would open an OF spot for Schierholtz or Freddie Lewis who could share fielding duties. You might say “But who would lead-off for the Giants with Roberts gone?” finding a suitable lead-off man isn’t even a real concern for the Giants, or at least it shouldn’t be. The offense is going to be bad with or without Roberts and I’d probably just stick someone like Kevin Frandsen in the lead-off spot. The Giants are a team that doesn’t have a lot of OBP but Frandsen has a nice career minor league OBP of .390 — which is partially driven by a very high .328 career BA — and makes good contact.
My lineup with Crede would look like this:
- Kevin Frandsen, 2B
- Nate Schierholtz, LF
- Randy Winn, RF
- Joe Crede, 3B
- Aaron Rowand, CF
- Bengie Molina, C
- Dan Ortmeier, 1B
- Omar Vizquel, SS
That’s an ugly lineup but I don’t think anyone has any hope that 2008 will be anything other than ugly. You’ll notice that Durham isn’t starting, in my scenario the Giants see that Durham doesn’t have much in Spring Training and either trade him, bench him, or let him work the garlic fries stand.
Comment Starter: Is Brian Sabean crazy to trade for Joe Crede. Yes.
January 30th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
What a nightmare. Feliz at $10 million and 2 years is looking damned good now.
Ensberg, first. Huge mistake. Poor D, OK offense as a platoon player. He is Durham like hitting against RH pitchers. He was OK in Houston where they had a LH hitting 3b to platoon him with.
Now, Crede. Martin at ObsessiveCompulsiveArachnidManicFearsomeness, postulates the Sox want to get rid of his salary and he has little worth to them, hence, will go for a 4th OF prospect, such as Timpner. If true, not so bad. My fear is we trade a useable piece, such as anyone on the 40 man under 30 (4th OFs excluded). All the mentioned pitchers, Lowry, Sanchez, Henn are very useable pieces and/or are valuable trading chips. Even Sanchez (or Henn) for Crede reduces our talent in ptiching, while hardly raising our talent in the IF; so, as a net, the team is weaker, EVEN IN ‘08. I am not nearly so opposed to Crede if a) we trade virtually nothing (Timpner) for him and b) something is done with Druham and quickly so that Frandsen plays.
Hell, I would even rather see Tony Cl;ark, as a LH bat off the bench, and assuming Ort is still the starter at 1b.
So, that elusive 25 spot? MacPherson, Velez, Clark in that order. And, as stated above, if it is Crede, then Durahm is gone and the 25th spot goes to Velez, MacPherson, Durham (as an end of the bench pinch hitter), in that order. And, no, I don’t want SChierholtz or Sanchez or Ochoa as the 25th man, each of them should be regulars at Fresno.
January 30th, 2008 at 8:13 pm
Hey Frank,
Ensberg’s defense isn’t poor, he’s been an above average defender in his career. He’s definitely a plus with the glove, maybe not a plus-plus like Feliz, but he’s far from a poor defender. I like him because he’s a good 1-year solution, actually gets on base, and if he’s healthy could see some power return. He’s the perfect 1-year commitment and I’ll always think so!
I’d be a-OK with Timpner heading to Chi-town for Crede but I think the White Sox will want more and I’ve just got this feeling that Brian Sabean has a burning hole in his pocket to spend one of the trade chips in Lowry or Sanchez.
I think Schierholtz should have a shot at a full-time position, but if he can’t play semi-regularly, then he should get steady AB’s in AAA. Ochoa? We’ll he shouldn’t be with the big club unless he’s a bat boy.
January 30th, 2008 at 8:43 pm
Wouldn’t you rather have Ochoa at $400K than 2 years of Omar at $5 mil each? Isn’t Ensberg’s fielding % somewhere around 955? And, are you considering that his “numbers” have been garnered almost exclusively against LH pitching? Agianst RHs I think his BA is ‘07 Durhamesque.
I have been saying all Winter better Feliz and Frandsen than Frandsen and Durham. And, notice the constant there is Frandsen. If Frandsen becomes parttime because of Crede or Ensberg, well, I think that just delays the future.
January 30th, 2008 at 9:24 pm
Ideally I’d rather not have either but given the choice I’d still take Omar. Ochoa can’t hit for beans and he’s not going to defend like Omar is. Everyone likes to talk about how slick Ochoa may or may not be with the glove but he’s not a +20 SS like Omar is. Advantage Omar.
As for Ensberg sure, he has hit LHP better for his career but his numbers against RHP aren’t terrible either. Career .258/.350/.456 against righties. That’s better than anything Feliz has ever done.
Ensberg’s BABIP has been down for the last 2 years, it could be a trend, or it could have been injury related. We know he was banged up in ‘06 but played anyways. He’s got chronic shoulder issues but if he’s even slightly healthy, I like his chances to produce just as well as Crede would, and he’ll cost cheaper, etc. He still walks at an above average rate which is good, I think he would work out pretty good in the #2 spot if we pick him up. If his BABIP returns closer to his career norms, his numbers should improve.
From 05-07 he was a +16 defender at 3B going by the Fielding Bible, thats not terrible and definitely above average. He’s not going to cost you runs at 3B. Very small sample size, but he played 90-some-innings at 3B in ‘07 and posted a RZR — revised zone range — of .808, which is good.